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Originally posted by aneeshm
Maybe so, and it is quite amazing and keeps the reader's interest, but it does detract a little from the realism aspect, doesn't it?
Please tell me you didn't just ask about the realism aspect of a series based at a Wizard School?
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Originally posted by aneeshm
Maybe I'm judging them too much from an Indian perspective, where ambiguity is almost the norm.
To give you an example of what I mean - the Ramayana is probably the world's oldest epic which is still culturally relevant. Almost all Indians, irrespective of religion, find the story grand.
The villain of the story is worshipped in the south. There is also a TV serial being made and aired right now which shows the whole thing from the viewpoint of the villains.
I'd say that ambiguity is the norm over here. Maybe that's why I find it a little simplistic. The only stories in India which have clear-cut morals are children's moral stories. Maybe that's why I'm being overly harsh.
The 'granddaddy' (if you will) of fantasy stories in the US (perhaps the West as a whole) is the Lord of the Rings... where Sauron is unquestionably the bad guy. No ambiguity there in the slightest.
That's just how fantasy has evolved. Since then, there have been some great fantasy series that had ambiguities in them (George R.R. Martin's magnificent "The Song of Ice and Fire" series to name one), but generally there is a 'bad guy' it seems.
Maybe so, and it is quite amazing and keeps the reader's interest, but it does detract a little from the realism aspect, doesn't it?
Realism? You have kids that can perform magic with wands as the basis for the story. I'm not sure realism plays too much into it . As long as it is plausible and doesn't suspend disbelief too much, it's ok.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
The coming of age story is rather murdered by the fact that the fact that there is a much larger malevolent presence in his life than that of any normal person, which changes the dynamics considerably, and the fact that the choice he has to make (between fighting willingly or unwillingly) is an academic one, isn't it?
Er, its not quite "Tom Browns School Days" or "Huck Finn". It IS a fantasy novel, a mystery series, and a thriller. But I think the coming of age theme still plays out fairly well and is well woven into the pop elements. And he has many other choices to make along the way, most importantly being how he relates to his friends, how he relates to Dumbledore, how to relate to Black (in the end of Book 3) how to relate to Snape (at many points) how to treat various elves, etc, etc.
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Even though it is 'children's book' it doesn't mean kids get all the subtle things in it. It's like Simpsons, the kids like it, get most of the jokes, but adults gets ALL the jokes.
In da butt.
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Originally posted by aneeshm
The coming of age story is rather murdered by the fact that the fact that there is a much larger malevolent presence in his life than that of any normal person, which changes the dynamics considerably, and the fact that the choice he has to make (between fighting willingly or unwillingly) is an academic one, isn't it?
Not necessarily. A lot of coming of age stories have the protagonist deal with extraordinary situations. That makes the protagonist's dealing with the issues of growing up much more pronounced and urgent.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
The 'granddaddy' (if you will) of fantasy stories in the US (perhaps the West as a whole) is the Lord of the Rings... where Sauron is unquestionably the bad guy. No ambiguity there in the slightest.
the ambiguity in LOTR was not in Sauron, the "grand floozle" but in lesser characters like Boromir, Denethor, and of course Gollum.
In HP the ambiguity is NOT in Voldemort, but in Snape, Karcharoff, Fudge, and so forth.
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Ah, then you should read HP, and join the legion of Snape fans (including myself). Voldemort is pure bad, like Satan in the traditions of the Abrahamic religions, but Snape is very ambigous. Go back and look at some of the discussions IS and I have had about Snape.
Well that is true. Snape's allegiances have been the subject of much discussion. I was focusing on the ultimate good vs. evil (main protagonist vs. main antagonist), but where does Snape's loyalties lie has been a major point ever since it was revealed that he used to be a Death Eater.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
The 'granddaddy' (if you will) of fantasy stories in the US (perhaps the West as a whole) is the Lord of the Rings... where Sauron is unquestionably the bad guy. No ambiguity there in the slightest.
That's just how fantasy has evolved. Since then, there have been some great fantasy series that had ambiguities in them (George R.R. Martin's magnificent "The Song of Ice and Fire" series to name one), but generally there is a 'bad guy' it seems.
That's what I'm trying to say. My perspective is one where it is always possible to sympathise with the "bad guys" of the story. In that television series I mentioned, a very balanced view is taken, where there is no clear-cut evil or good. Now I'm no relativist, but having both sides as possible good ones makes for a much more interesting story.
In the second grand Indian epic, the Mahabharat, things get far messier and blurred than in the Ramayana. Even God incarnate is shown to be using unfair means when needed. The whole thing is completely re-interpretable every way possible.
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Please tell me you didn't just ask about the realism aspect of a series based at a Wizard School?
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Realism? You have kids that can perform magic with wands as the basis for the story. I'm not sure realism plays too much into it . As long as it is plausible and doesn't suspend disbelief too much, it's ok.
It's quite possible to have very realistic things in a magical universe, as long as the magical elements are mechanical and follow set laws, like the rest of the universe does. I gave the example of Asimov's Robot stories precisely for this reason.
Well that is true. Snape's allegiances have been the subject of much discussion. I was focusing on the ultimate good vs. evil (main protagonist vs. main antagonist), but where does Snape's loyalties lie has been a major point ever since it was revealed that he used to be a Death Eater.
I agree. Snape is one of the most interesting characters in the series (probably THE most interesting). One of the ways of judging the books is by seeing how Snape is handled in the seventh book. He is also the only character whose actions you can understand, even if you can't empathise with them.
It is unfortunately (or fortunately) untrue that heroes are perfectly normal beings
Care to back that assertion? Based on real world types rather than fantasy types?
What about the ambiguous choices like not saying anything to the Order of the Pnoenix at the end of the last book rather than siding with them? Ambiguous character of Harry's father who is depicted as a quite unpleasant fellow in the penseine?
I agree though that there is little or no moral dilemma, but Harry tries to use the death curse himself, a truly evil act, once.
Going back to the LotR isn't going far enough to find out why there's a dichotomy of good/evil in these books. It's a very christian notion, if not older. A christian doesn't picture the Christ having moral dilemmas or doing stuff like answering "Ashvatthaman is dead (-sotto voce:- the elephant)". Western people certainly expect a clear cut good/evil war, where the evil side with the evil and the good with the good, not one where the 'evil' king is helped by 'good' people.
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Care to back that assertion? Based on real world types rather than fantasy types?
What about the ambiguous choices like not saying anything to the Order of the Pnoenix at the end of the last book rather than siding with them? Ambiguous character of Harry's father who is depicted as a quite unpleasant fellow in the penseine?
I agree though that there is little or no moral dilemma, but Harry tries to use the death curse himself, a truly evil act, once.
Going back to the LotR isn't going far enough to find out why there's a dichotomy of good/evil in these books. It's a very christian notion, if not older. A christian doesn't picture the Christ having moral dilemmas or doing stuff like answering "Ashvatthaman is dead (-sotto voce:- the elephant)". Western people certainly expect a clear cut good/evil war, where the evil side with the evil and the good with the good, not one where the 'evil' king is helped by 'good' people.
Joy of joys! Someone who actually knows what I'm talking about!
That's what I said, you know - maybe my judgement is coloured by my cultural expectations.
Actually more like young adult . And let's put it this way, it is far darker than the Chronicles of Narnia. Every book has gotten a put more complex and bit more dark, as J.K. Rowling has stated her readers are growing up and presumably she's writing with that in mind. So perhaps the final book may be less "children's" than "adult" fare.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually more like young adult . And let's put it this way, it is far darker than the Chronicles of Narnia. Every book has gotten a put more complex and bit more dark, as J.K. Rowling has stated her readers are growing up and presumably she's writing with that in mind. So perhaps the final book may be less "children's" than "adult" fare.
What, so you think torture and death of loved ones is too kiddy?
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
. As long as it is plausible and doesn't suspend disbelief too much, it's ok.
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