I fought the law and got it struck down

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I find this thread rather sad. Wouldn't you help far more people by helping to cure the underlaying problems which cause homelessness (mental illness, drug addiction, alcohol addiction) rather then wasting everyone's time fighting for a "right" for homeless people to "camp" where ever they want?

Ah, so you want to force the homeless to undertake treatment against their will?

[Wezil]

It is much more humane to let them freeze outside.

[Dinner]

Nope. I want to make life on the streets so unappealing and unlivable that even the most hard core guy agrees to go to treatment and to stick to that treatment without relapse. Tough love is what most homeless people need not a law allowing them to camp were ever they choose.

It would be nice if the city can keep it's parks and streets clear of vagriants while doing that.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Straybow

Originally posted by Oerdin
I find this thread rather sad. Wouldn't you help far more people by helping to cure the underlaying problems which cause homelessness (mental illness, drug addiction, alcohol addiction) rather then wasting everyone's time fighting for a "right" for homeless people to "camp" where ever they want?

Ah, so you want to force the homeless to undertake treatment against their will?

I don't know what Oerdin wants but forcible confinement would probably be a better life for some of the mentally ill folks. But since they do meet some minimum level of competence, their opinion on the matter has the be respected.


As for all the addicts, the more we make it difficult for them to engage in their habits and leach off society, the better I like it. I don't see how making it easy for the junkie to camp across the street from his dealer helps anyone

Two things are needed

1. Enough generally affordable housing. On top of that you need some transition housing. I would totally support the idea of government funded free housing that newly homeless people could use for say 3-4 months until they could save up for their damage deposit.

2. Some better plan for the addicts and mentally ill. I don't know what it is but it seems that general growing affluence in Calgary is making the homeless situation worse not better (and any view that the affluence is not trickling down to the working class here is crap as there are more jobs than people and fast food wages are up round $11 to start when they were probably $7 just a couple of years ago). I am wondering if a richer city means more people give money to the beggars or what since there seems to be a lot more of them

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I find this thread rather sad. Wouldn't you help far more people by helping to cure the underlaying problems which cause homelessness (mental illness, drug addiction, alcohol addiction) rather then wasting everyone's time fighting for a "right" for homeless people to "camp" where ever they want?

So what are you saying, that I'm a drug addict? I ended up homeless because there isn't enough zoning for housing here, because the local government isn't building infrastructure here, claiming it's too expensive, but the shortage conviently jacks up housing prices, as their real patrons here are rich landowners.

Have you seen the pictures of military families standing in line for food? Unemployment stats are bogus; after someone has used up their 6 months of unemployment, they are no longer counted as unemployed.

As far as the "cruel and unusual" label, it cited SCOTUS rulings that said that said that citing people for sleeping creates "stautus crimes", people can not be punished in any way for things beyond their control, as they did lepers millenia ago, it would be like a judge deciding someone's skin color was too dark to fit public standards, and arresing them.

The Jones decision isn't about camping anywhere people want, that case was remanded to a lower court to make some decisions on what could be done to balance people's need for sleep with LA's need to regulate parks etc. The lower court ordered 3 months of manidory artibitation, which LA's council rejected and are trying to got to SCOTUS. They usually listen to cases where 2 Appeals courts are diametrically opposed. The most rightwing, the Fifth, in Texas, has had several cases where campers got off on neccessity, only used in individual cases, being commonlaw, it doesn't stricke down the law.

If It does go to SCOTUS, I'm not too concerned, to find out why, google Clarence Thomas natural law. He says its one of the best arguments for judical review

[Dis]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
They sleep in cars in back of gas stations.
Make a law against both cars and gas stations.
Outlaws parks, they might stand around.

This has lots of possibilities.

our mayor already closed a park the homeless used. one homeless guy was stabbbed to death.,

[Dis]

but I do hope this passes. That way I can save some money on a hotel room and camp out.

[Solly]

Originally posted by Wezil
It is much more humane to let them freeze outside.

Alcohol doubles as anti-freeze.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by realpolitic


So what are you saying, that I'm a drug addict? I ended up homeless because there isn't enough zoning for housing here, because the local government isn't building infrastructure here, claiming it's too expensive, but the shortage conviently jacks up housing prices, as their real patrons here are rich landowners.

hmm--I don't know what others think. I have no idea what you are or were but in most cities there are several categories of homeless. Some are chronic homeless usually with longstanding menatl or addiction problems. Among the more short-termers, you do still have people with addiction and mental problems but you also have a number of recent migrants to the city, any number of people undergoing short-term unfortunate circumstances. IN a tighter housing market some will be employed people with reasonable but not great jobs.

So I assume nothing about anyone that is homeless. There are a number of ways to end up in that situation

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Wezil
It is much more humane to let them freeze outside.

I don't know about Ontario but In Calgary, we have winter shelters such that no one gets turned away. I believed they used the Stampede grounds and some school facilities on colder nights.

PLus any time the temperature goes below minus 15 C, the people are welcome to stay inside the shelter all day-- The reality on a business day is that a homeless person could spend the day walking through the PLUS-15 system all day and if they bothered no one else, its unlikely any of the security folks would bother them.

The ones freezing to death are the ones without enough abilities to make it to a shelter

[Dinner]

Originally posted by realpolitic
So what are you saying, that I'm a drug addict? I ended up homeless because there isn't enough zoning for housing here, because the local government isn't building infrastructure here, claiming it's too expensive, but the shortage conviently jacks up housing prices, as their real patrons here are rich landowners.

Most of the long term homeless are indeed homeless for a reason. Most really are addicted or mentally ill; I base this on years of volunteering to help the homeless at soup kitchens when I was in my teens and early 20's. It's simply the reason these people are unemployable and thus on the street. There are short term homeless who couldn't pay their rent or had some other problem but these people usually are employable, are smart enough to use transitional housing offered by cities and churches, and they don't break the rules so they don't get kicked out. The cronic homeless don't/won't.

I did an interview of one of the heads of Catholic Charities here in San Diego for the school newspaper when I was a senior in High School. The number one reason they flunk people out of their transitional program for homeless people was because of drug or alcohol relapses. The church expects people to make an effort to help themselves by taking their meds and getting clean; those that don't get kicked out of the system and they're the ones who remain on the streets.

Have you seen the pictures of military families standing in line for food? Unemployment stats are bogus; after someone has used up their 6 months of unemployment, they are no longer counted as unemployed.

You realize I spent 9 years in the military, right? The pay is actually pretty good with BAH included and the ones who accept food aid tend to be 18-22 years old, with a wife, and multiple kids while only being an E1-E3. Of course they have trouble paying their bills dispite getting subsidized housing and a steady pay check. They didn't practice family planning and they're not working hard enough to get promoted quickly (I went from E1 to E5 in just 2 years) so they're increasing their bills but not doing what it takes to make more money. It's their own faults though the military should pay more then $200 per month per child in bonus pay(capped at $600 per month no matter how many kids you have).

As for benifets running out in 6 months; I've always been able to find a job in much less time and if someone can't then they need to either move to a different area or accept that their previous career choice is no longer viable. There are literally thousands of jobs in San Diego which are going unfilled dispite large raises in offered salaries because the unemployment rate is currently around 3.5% in this city. They're even getting the old grandparents and young 15 year olds working part time jobs to help ease the worker shortage. If you can't find a job then there is something wrong with you personally, you aren't actually trying to get a job, or you're looking in the totally wrong place for a job.

There is other stuff which you quoted which I have deleted but will respond to here. The claim made in your original link said that the judge found it was cruel and unusual punishment to arrest or fine people for sleeping on the streets or in parks since the city didn't give them enough shelter space. I call BS. Those people are mostly homeless for a reason; a reason which they are avoiding dealing with. Letting them live in parks or on sidewalks is not a valid option and in fact would be counter productive since one of main tools to convince the truly stubborn to get help for their addictions is to make their current situation so unbarible that they think giving up the bottle is easier then continuing to live as they are.

Not to mention most of the upstanding and employed citizens of a city, you know the ones who pay for everything, get pissed off when they can't use parks or sidewalks which they paid for and continue to pay to maintain. Naturally, they don't want lots of homeless people sitting around and agressively panhandling or having drunk/high people in places were children often play like parks.
[/QUOTE]

[Pekka]

How do you outlaw homelessness? Isn't that like a kick in the face? Umm you don't have a home? Here, let's go to jail, you criminal bastard!!

By outlawing it would indicate that the state has the obligation to give accomodation to homeless people, which doesn't sound like a bad idea either.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Doddler


Alcohol doubles as anti-freeze.

Alcohol actually makes you more suceptable to cold injuries because it dehydrates you.

[Solly]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Alcohol actually makes you more suceptable to cold injuries because it dehydrates you.

No, it heats you up. Try it sometime

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I find this thread rather sad. Wouldn't you help far more people by helping to cure the underlaying problems which cause homelessness (mental illness, drug addiction, alcohol addiction)

...problems with landlords?