Ethiopia Bombs Mogadishu:

[OzzyKP]

It is so much fun to follow a war that doesn't lead to the whole world hating Americans.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
It is so much fun to follow a war that doesn't lead to the whole world hating Americans.

The world will largely blame any unfavorable results on American action/inaction recent or in the distant past.

[OzzyKP]

True.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Geronimo


The world will largely blame any unfavorable results on American action/inaction recent or in the distant past.

But, thank God, you can just pass the buck to the UN.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by germanos


But, thank God, you can just pass the buck to the UN.

well at least theyre good for something

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
You seem to keep talking about the "warlords" as if they were all a nasty bunch of evil men who deliberately destroyed Somalia, and the way to solve Somalia is a huge campaign to build a new Somali army from scratch to put them down (much like our attempt to build an Iraqi army from scratch) In fact, from what I can gather, many warlords were simply clan leaders or businessmen who attempted to defend their interests in the wake of the collapse of central authority. It seems like a wise decision might be for the TNG to work WITH the clans - and to use their existing force to establish order.

Oh, yes, defend their interests not by backing the return of governance, but by gathering armed men to fight for their own personal interests at the cost of everyone elses. HOw noble of them. Yes, they are heroes the lot of them!

You know, maybe in the 17 years since central governance collapesed these fine upstanding men could have actually tried to bring something other than anarchy...wait, not they didn't, none of them EXCEPT the groups that joined and created the islamic courts, but they are clearly EVIL because they are islamists, and we all know all islamists are the evil incarnate, and we must all gether together to kill as many of them as we can.....

It seem unlikely that the Ethiopian troops will stay a long time, or even enter Mogadishu. A wise decision, i think. But they can still, by giving the TNG a dominant position in rural areas, give it a leg up, and thus give clans an incentive to get on the TNG bandwagon as the best tactical course. A limited amount of international aid could add to this snowballing effect, and would also be wise. But a Bremer-like attempt to use international aid to bypass the clans and substitute a new govt force might well be a tragic mistake.

And how the hell can Ethiopia give the transtional government a dominant position without
a) staying there to back them long term, which is costly and begs a nationalistic response OR
b) Fighting the warlords and disarming them before leaving, which would be costly?

[Sava]

Why are africans allowed to have fighter jets?

[VetLegion]

They basically rent them. Ukrainians and Russians are flying them.

[Sava]

In Soviet Russia, fighter jets rent YOU!

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by GePap


"Oh, yes, defend their interests not by backing the return of governance, but by gathering armed men to fight for their own personal interests at the cost of everyone elses. HOw noble of them. Yes, they are heroes the lot of them!"


responding naturally to the conditions of anarchy != being heroes. Warlordism is a naturaly reaction to certain political conditions. I suggest reading "Feudal Society" by Marc Bloch.


"You know, maybe in the 17 years since central governance collapesed these fine upstanding men could have actually tried to bring something other than anarchy..."


In Somaliland and Puntland, they did put together states, which unfortunately dont conform to the boundaries of the Somali "state" and due to the agreement that borders in Africa mustnt change (or the whole continent wide house of cards falls down) they havent been recognized. They did put together a Transitional Nat Govt in 2004. Which the wonderful heros of the Islamic Courts refused to negotiate with.

"wait, not they didn't, none of them EXCEPT the groups that joined and created the islamic courts, but they are clearly EVIL because they are islamists, and we all know all islamists are the evil incarnate, and we must all gether together to kill as many of them as we can....."


Not all Islamists, but certainly those Islamist who shelter the folks who bombed our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Oops, sorry, that was just mechanized warfare gone bad, we dont have the right to demonize them just cause they commit acts of terrorism. We should lie down and take it with pleasure. And cause they declare Jihad against the govt of Ethiopia. No, we should always sympathize with Islamist terrorists, otherwise wed be conceding legitimacy to the socalled "War on terror"


Oh, and we musnt forget what a great record Islamist have in black africa, from Sudan where they are currently commiting a really brutal ethnic cleansing, to Kano state in Nigeria, where they managed to revive polio.




"And how the hell can Ethiopia give the transtional government a dominant position without
a) staying there to back them long term, which is costly and begs a nationalistic response OR
b) Fighting the warlords and disarming them before leaving, which would be costly?"


They can provide air support, material support, and occasional raids into the country to give the TNG an edge over everyone else. Without occupying themselves. Kinda what Murtha suggests for Iraq.

[Gatekeeper]

The Islamic militia abandoned Kismayo within the last hour or so. Apparently enduring a night of artillery bombardment was too much for the 3,000 or so fighters holed up there. That, plus they also suffered some sort of insurrection w/i their ranks.

A mass of Islamic fighters and officials are said to be hightailing it for the Kenyan border.

Gatekeeper

[TCO]

Originally posted by VetLegion

U.S. signals support for Ethiopia in Somalia

Kind of predictable from Uncle Sam

We are on the side of the angels.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
The Islamic militia abandoned Kismayo within the last hour or so. Apparently enduring a night of artillery bombardment was too much for the 3,000 or so fighters holed up there. That, plus they also suffered some sort of insurrection w/i their ranks.

A mass of Islamic fighters and officials are said to be hightailing it for the Kenyan border.

Gatekeeper

I'll bet the Kenyans will be pleased by that turn of events.

[GePap]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

Originally posted by GePap

responding naturally to the conditions of anarchy != being heroes. Warlordism is a naturaly reaction to certain political conditions. I suggest reading "Feudal Society" by Marc Bloch.

Oh yes, a "feudal society"...how good for the people of Somalia?

In Somaliland and Puntland, they did put together states, which unfortunately dont conform to the boundaries of the Somali "state" and due to the agreement that borders in Africa mustnt change (or the whole continent wide house of cards falls down) they havent been recognized. They did put together a Transitional Nat Govt in 2004. Which the wonderful heros of the Islamic Courts refused to negotiate with.

The transitional government did not have enough force to project any authority which was the problem, and you are a strange person to be talking about state borders in a dismissive manner.

Not all Islamists, but certainly those Islamist who shelter the folks who bombed our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Oops, sorry, that was just mechanized warfare gone bad, we dont have the right to demonize them just cause they commit acts of terrorism. We should lie down and take it with pleasure. And cause they declare Jihad against the govt of Ethiopia. No, we should always sympathize with Islamist terrorists, otherwise wed be conceding legitimacy to the socalled "War on terror"

You are not very good at sarcasm, too heavy handed, not enough cynicism.

They can provide air support, material support, and occasional raids into the country to give the TNG an edge over everyone else. Without occupying themselves. Kinda what Murtha suggests for Iraq.

Maybe you forget the part about Ethiopia being a poor state. What the US can do is quite different from what Ethiopia can do.

[Dinner]

hopefully Kenya is smart enough to put it's army on the Somalian border to prevent armed Islamic insurgents from entering its national territory.