Ecthy, interests? So, you discount Wilson focus on democracy?
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WWI: What if the U.S. stayed neutral?
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Was it Wilson or Congress who declared war on Germany?
I'm not a strict adherent to any theories of political realism, but especially in this case I'm more convinced by the financial argument raised by Strangelove than by the idealistic of the US fighting for representation.
Don't think they supported the whites in Russia because those stood for a post-czarist regime (Kerensky) that was supposed to establish freedom - it rather guaranteed the pursuit of business interest more than the reds.
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Well, Etchy, we live in a democracy here where politicians have to be elected. Americans simply would not stand for a war for purely economic reasons. If Wilson had approached congress and made an economic argument that we should go to war with Germany because that would be good for business, he wouldn't have gotten the votes because all involved would be answerable to the American people.
When people accuse Wilson or even Bush of economic reasons for going to war, they simply ignore this facet of America.
I think Wilson was, in fact, a radical "democrat" and truly believed that the cause of WWI lay in the lack of democracy in Germany.http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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I understand they will use "democratic arguments" to convince congress, and the populace.
Many analysts of history maintain that US governments in both world wars realized their country's interest in goingto war quite early but had to convince their population. Their potential adversaries' warfare helped them, e.g. German u-boat warfare in both wars, Japanese attack during WWII etc. "Democratic considerations" are merely propaganda for the people and not the real reasons. Don't take this as a general criticism of our political systems, what I'm saying is that the interests of our nations are not always easily understood within purely democratic points of view.
Wilson enjoys a reputation of having been deep into this democracy business. But he also knew that he could only act according to circumstances of reality, not always do what he wished for.
Otherwise he might as well have opposed Russia more than Germany since it was even more backwards politically. But of course siding with the Entente powers including Russia was one of those "decisions that have to be taken if we like it or not" (generic statement), because ability to recognize hard facts in a realist manner often more than outweighs ideological conviction, especially when we talk of leaders (ability to lead requires a degree of realism) and not of bureaucrats.
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Exactly right, Ecthy. The public justifications for a war may not be the real reason the leadership decided to get involved. Democracy sounds better than our economic interests lie with Britain and France, especially after Lend-Lease. There probably is a little bit of both involved for Wilson, but I think the national interest was more important. Especially seeing how he was essentially a war profiteer for the US vis-a-vis Britain and France!!“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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If you and Imran are right, the way to Wilson's heart was to line it with gold. That was Germany's ticket, not the Zimmerman note.
But seriously, Imran and Etchy, you would have to show that Wilson would have made out better selling arms to the US military for a war on Germany than for a war on Britain and France. All other things being equal, Wilson would profit both ways.
If this is correct, the reasons Wilson chose for siding with England and France appear to lie elsewhere.Last edited by Ned; December 25, 2006, 20:40.http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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Originally posted by Sandman
They didn't move half a million men from the Western front to crush Romania. Most of the troops for that campaign were supplied by Bulgaria and the Ottomans, even if the German units did most of the legwork.
Beg your pardon, yes they did move 500k troops from the Western Front to crush Romania. After Romania was wiped out they moved these troops to Italy to finish off the Italians.Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.
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Originally posted by Ned
If you and Imran are right, the way to Wilson's heart was to line it with gold. That was Germany's ticket, not the Zimmerman note.
But seriously, Imran and Etchy, you would have to show that Wilson would have made out better selling arms to the US military for a war on Germany than for a war on Britain and France. All other things being equal, Wilson would profit both ways.
If this is correct, the reasons Wilson chose for siding with England and France appear to lie elsewhere.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Well there still is the argument that Germany was much stronger than UK and France combined prior to the war and thus a potential hegemon (uh oh quoting Mearsheimer again) in Europe. Given the US was better off with a balance of power rather than an overly strong competitor in Europe, it's still better off with siding with the UK and France.
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That and there were some sketchy mustaches in German politics (and that's just on Rosa Luxemburg) .“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Well, in the final analysis, the Brits were much better at propaganda than the Germans, who despite being in the right from the beginning of the war, were protrayed as uncouth barbarians by the Brits for their actions in Belgium and on the High Seas.
Among the things that would have swayed America to the German side included the following:
The Germans could have gone democratic early in the war, at a time when the whole nation was unified behind the war.
They could have emphasized the justice in their position. After all, it was the Serbs who assinated the Archduke and was it was their Russian allies who mobilized against them.
But above all, they should have painted the Brits and French, and the Serbs, in a bad light so that the American public would have favored the German side.http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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Originally posted by Ned
were protrayed as uncouth barbarians by the Brits for their actions in Belgium and on the High Seas.
The english have always pretended for centuries to be more civilized and moral than their enemies during wars, and usually succesfully, it is a long traditionI need a foot massage
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Originally posted by Lonestar
Beg your pardon, yes they did move 500k troops from the Western Front to crush Romania. After Romania was wiped out they moved these troops to Italy to finish off the Italians.
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The Germans could have gone democratic early in the war, at a time when the whole nation was unified behind the war.
I think the Kaiser may have had problems with that one .
And the Brits didn't have to portray the actions on the high seas are barbaric, most people thought the concept of submarine warfare was barbaric, as they believed the ship should hail the passenger ships and ask to board (which would have been deadly stupid for a U-boat) before they started firing.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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