WWI: What if the U.S. stayed neutral?

[ElTigre]

Originally posted by Ned
ElTigre, I know what you said in your example. But it is not apt.

Why not?

What is the sports car in your example? Who is the wife? The judge?

[Ned]

The sports car is the corridor. The wife is Poland. The Judge(ment) is the Versailles treaty.

The question is whether to give the sports car back in order to rescue the hostages. The objection is that he will just ask for more, perhaps next the hunting lodge also awarded to wife.

If he keeps pulling stunts like this, you can no longer trust him to keep his word that he has made his last demand. But doesn't that raise the issue of the whole court order regarding the wife and the husband? Why not sit down with all parties affected and come to a new deal, one where the husband actually agrees to the settlement instead of it being imposed by court order.

But the immediate crisis is whether to storm the building and risk having the hostages killed or give back the sports car and deal with the hunting lodge later.

What do you do?

[ElTigre]

What do I do? I laugh at your ridiculous attempt to justify the shooting of innocent people.

You realize he has already shot many hostages? And you suggest that he walks away undisturbed, without punishment? Because someone took his sports car away? You think shooting innocent people is a reasonable response to that?

This would be funny if it weren't sad.

And BTW, I contest your claim that the sports car was his in the first place.

Oh, and the court deal had been renegotiated already. The Munich Agreement gave him the "hunting lodge", which had never been his before. He reacted by burning down a neighbor's house, just like that.

[Ned]

OK, ElTigre, prove to me that Hitler's mistreatment of the Roma and the Jews was why Britain and/or France declared war.

You're relying on this aspect of your hypo is completely inapt to the historical facts.

About Munich, yes. Let's say this is third time he took hostages to get back something from the court order. You absolutely cannot trust him to keep his word that this would be the last time he would take hostages to get back one more piece.

But all this argues for is a full review of the court order by all affected parties, at one time, at one place. Alternatively, the time for any negotiations is over if it is your intention to stop his questioning of the court order permanently before it gets to things you, the Brits or the French or your allies, have that the Germans (and their allies) formerly had, such as the foreign colonies or Mesopotamia, and that they want back.

[ElTigre]

Your last paragraph doesn't even make sense, since you already admitted Hitler acquired territory Germany never had before, the Sudetenland and the Czech Republic.

You also admitted that he was completely untrustworthy, so how can you trust him to uphold a new general agreement?

But actually, your continued refusal to admit that he should be tried for mass murder is really all there is to say. You want to return a (stolen) sports car to someone who shoots innocent people?

[Ned]

ElTigre, taking Czechoslovakia was Hitler's undoing. I have said this before and I will say it again here for effect. I agree the allies had good reason for not trusting him at all after Munich, so much so that England and France refused to sit down at the table even in face of calls for peace conferences by the pope, FDR and el Duce.

Who ever said Hitler should not be tried for crimes against humanity. I said that was the one crime he clearly was guilty of that the allies were not.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
what I said is beyond trash.

That part we agree on.

You have consistently downplayed the racist aspect fo Hitler's regime BEFORE the Wannsee Conference.

The Wannsee Conference sought a 'FINAL' Solution to the 'Jewish Problem'.

Note that- a FINAL solution, which means they regarded the 'solutions' used so far as ineffective or inefficient, which means that a programme of extermination had already been undergoing a trial, as it were.

Forgive me if I use drug company testing analogies, but since Hitler referred to the Jews as 'bacilli' and 'tuberculosis' that does seem quite appropriate.

I never said that Hitler was not a racist

I never claimed you did: your point of emphasis is what I 'm indicating, as I made clear.

and that his motivations for what he did were not, in part, based on racism.

You've come up with some ludicrous analogy with the Armenians in World War I- ignoring the fact that the Russians were quite happy to use Armenians living in Russia against the Turks, and that these areas of Russia were adjacent to the Ottoman Empire's vilayets where many Armenians lived; that Armenians had rebelled in the Ottoman Empire in the 1890s, and that there had been massacres of Armenians in 1894 and 1896.

Then you've used the detention and relocation of Japanese-Americans in the aftermath of the Japanese Empire's attack on Pearl Harbour.

In neither case does your analogy with Hitler's policies towards the Jews in Germany and Europe hold up.

Far from deporting Jews from insecure areas near war zones, Hitler's regime transported Jews to the Genearl Gouvernement in Nazi-occupied Poland- closer to combat zones in European Russia.

The German Jews had not reblled en masse in Weimar Germany, or in Nazi Germany. You keep stressing the Jewish members of the 'Socialist-led' strikes in Imperial Germany, but you don't go into any detail about these strikes, nor do you name the Jewish 'leaders'.

Equally, you don't mention at all the right wing rebellions in post-war Germany, nor the fact that Ludendorff and Hitler were involved in one!

Odd emphasis you have, isn't it ?

What I contend is that it got a lot worse after the war started

Possibly something to do with the fact that over 3 million Jews lived in Poland.

And that by the time the Nazis had occupied France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway, the Baltic States, European Russia, Yugoslavia and Greece , and the Nazi-friendly regimes in Rumainia and Slovakia were also factored in, the Nazis had an awful lot more Jews (and not just assimilated, Westernized Jews as so many of Germany's were) to deal with.

They also had most of Western Europe and nearly Eastern Europe to do with as they pleased- to create their Final Solution.

and that the allies were warned that it would.

Rot.

Your speech quote confirms that Hitler said that he would exterminated the Jews from Europe should the allies provoke another European war

It does not. Do you not even now appreciate what Hitler explicitly said in his speech to the Reichstag ?

If the international Jewish financiers, inside and outside Europe, succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevisation of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!'

I don't see the word 'Allies' there. I see 'Jewish financiers', 'Bolshevisation', 'Jewry' and 'annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe'.

The date of the speech, Ned ?

30th January 1939

Poland not yet invaded, as memory serves.

Your quote on the Roma does not show the Nazi's made any mass arrests of them prior to the start of the war,

WRONG!

Similarly, under the "Law against Dangerous Habitual Criminals" of November 1933, the police arrested many Gypsies along with others the Nazis viewed as "asocials" [...] and imprisoned them in concentration camps.

But what you did quote shows the Nazi's racism was on the march from an early stage

Gee, ya think ?

Programme of the NSDAP, 24 February 1920

The 25 points of the NSDAP Program were composed by Adolf Hitler and Anton Drexler. They were publicly presented on 24 February 1920 "to a crowd of almost two thousand and every single point was accepted amid jubilant approval."

4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.

8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.

9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.

23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:

(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the German language must be members of the nation;

(b) that no non-German newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the German language;

(c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing German newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Germans involved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

Mmm, I'd say the early emphasis on race is already quite clear there.

and the allies could expect that it would get a lot worse from the Nazi's during a war.

By all means, shift the blame from the Nazi Regime and on to the Allies. That's what you've been doing all long.

Don't you find it amazing that that was the first they or most civilians heard about them?

What exactly did you think the priority of the British Government was ? Winning the war or educating its troops on the existence of extermination camps ?

The Catholic Church and the allied high commands knew all about the death camps long prior and said and did nothing (meaningful -- that is)

I seem to recall the Russians and Western Allies liberating the concentration camps and the death camps. As to the role of the Roman Catholic Church that's a different matter.

It wasn't the Western Allies nor the Russians who created Treblinka and Auschwitz. But good show on trying to deflect the blame again.

Prior to the end of the war, the racism of the Nazis was well known, but not the death camps.

Not true. Even if you include only the camp guards, the administrators of the Final Solution, the railway workers, and then account for all their friends, families and acquaintances, the existence of extermination camps was well known, as I've shown from a passing aside in a written communication from one German official to another, where in a letter about the removal of railings, he says in passing that the recipient is still employed in the extermination of Jews.

So again, civilians in the occupied territories, government officials, the police and Gestapo, and high ranking military officers knew of their existence.

As well as the partisans too of course.

It seems to me the allies made a deliberate decision to keep this information confidential, which is consistent with their not really caring about what was happening.

Again, attempting to shift the blame away from the creators and instigators of the Final Solution and onto the Allies. Doing a great job, Ned.

Statement of the President

[Released to the press by the White House, October 7, 1942]

On August twenty-first I said that this Government was constantly receiving information concerning the barbaric crimes being committed by the enemy against civilian populations in occupied countries, particularly on the continent of Europe. I said it was the purpose of this Government, as I knew it to be the purpose of the other United Nations, to see that when victory is won the perpetrators of these crimes shall answer for them before courts of law.

The commission of these crimes continues.

I now declare it to be the intention of this Government that the successful close of the war shall include provision for the surrender to the United Nations of war criminals.

With a view to establishing responsibility of the guilty individuals through the collection and assessment of all available evidence, this Government is prepared to cooperate with the British and other Governments in establishing a United Nations Commission for the Investigation of War Crimes.

The number of persons eventually found guilty will undoubtedly be extremely small compared to the total enemy populations. It is not the intention of this Government or of the Governments associated with us to resort to mass reprisals. It is our intention that just and sure punishment shall be meted out to the ringleaders responsible for the organized murder of thousands of innocent persons and the commission of atrocities which have violated every tenet of the Christian faith.

Annexed

German Policy of Extermination of the Jewish Race

[Released to the press by the Department of State December 17, 1942]

The attention of the Belgian, Czechoslovak, Greek, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norwegian, Polish, Soviet, United Kingdom, United States, and Yugoslav Governments and also of the French National
Committee has been drawn to numerous reports from Europe that the German authorities, not content with denying to persons of Jewish race in all the territories over which their barbarous rule has been extended the most elementary human rights, are now carrying into effect Hitler's oft-repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe.

From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality to eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettos established by the German invader are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries.

None of those taken away are ever heard of again.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/jackson/jack01.htm

Well Ned:

It seems to me the allies made a deliberate decision to keep this information confidential

does it still ?

[ElTigre]

Molly, save your monitor ink, Ned has left the forum because of an incident unrelated to the WW1/WW2 discussions. He said he won't participate on this forum anymore.

[Ecthy]

Link?

[ElTigre]

Not possible, the posts have been deleted.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
ElTigre, you post shows that the Roma were the first people to be forced into concentration camps.

We did the same thing to the American Indians. We called them "reservations."

I fail to see how the activities of the American government or army in the 19th Century exonerates the Nazi Regime.

But your post also shows the decision to exterminate them came at the same time as the Final Solution, 1942.

I don't think it does at all.

During the war, which is my point.

Ah, I see- the war forced Hitler and his regime to be racist. So if the Allies just hadn't been so uppity in going to war with Hitler, then he would have completely forgotten the past two decades' worth of antisemitic and anti-Slav bile he'd spewed out.

No doubt he would have set up holiday camps for the Roma and Jews and Slavs and employed them as children's entertainers in Autobahn service stations.

Isn't this evidence that the allies really didn't care that much and what was happening was not published in the newspapers for all to see?

Good grief.

[Released to the press by the Department of State December 17, 1942]

78th Congress
1st Session
S. Con. Res.

House Calendar No. 53
[Report No. 2521]

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
March 11, 1943
Referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs
March 16, 1943
Referred to the House Calendar and ordered to be printed
Concurrent Resolution

Whereas the American people view with indignation the atrocities inflicted, upon the civilian population in the Nazi occupied countries, and especially the mass murder of Jewish men, women, and children; and

Whereas this policy of the Nazis has created a reign of terror, brutality, and extermination in Poland and other countries in Eastern and Central Europe: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concurring), That these brutal and indefensible outrages against million of helpless men, women, and children should be, and they are hereby, condemned as unworthy of any nation or any regime which pretends to be civilized;

et cetera. 'Released to the press'- highly confidential!

'IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES'- doesn't imply a closed session, does it ?

Not only were our soldiers shocked, but most Germans themselves were "shocked."

Care to give us a percentage ?

This is a myth- it's one thing to know of the existence of extermination camps, another thing to know the reality of them and see it in front of your face.

We've been here before too. More denial on your part Ned.

Information in the Reich was highly censored

Did people walk around in opaque hermetically sealed environment suits too ?

People knew their neighbours were being deported.

People knew about the mass killing of the mentally ill, the retarded and the disabled- so highly censored was this information, that the Catholic Church in Germany protested, and the mass killings were halted, briefly.

Many people had simply become indifferent to the fate of Germany's Jews- which is very different from saying that all Germans were or are antisemites or that they were Hitler's willing executioners.

It took a kind of moral courage that not many people have, but the Scholl siblings did, to protest against a dictatorship's policies.

Graffiti began appearing in large letters on streets and buildings all over Munich: “Down with Hitler! . . . Hitler the Mass Murderer!” and “Freihart! . . . Freihart! . . . Freedom! . . . Freedom!”

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/rose.html

I once had the privilege of meeting a member of the Dutch Resistance in Amsterdam- I asked him why he risked his life to fight against the Nazi occupation of his country, and he said that some things you did because you felt you had to, that not to do so was worse.

He also said he didn't feel particularly brave, nor did he blame people who didn't join the Resistance.

British newspaper, 'The People', 17th October 1943:

[Ecthy]

Was he in a flame war then? Who with?

[ElTigre]

Check your PMs.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
OK, ElTigre, prove to me that Hitler's mistreatment of the Roma and the Jews was why Britain and/or France declared war.

No one has argued that the racism of the Nazi Regime is why France or Great Britain declared war on Hitler's government.

However, the racist sentiments and policies of Hitler certainly played a part in deciding that the Slav-populated areas of Eastern Europe would be invaded:

But when we speak of new territory in Europe today, we must principally think of Russia and the border states subject to her.

Destiny itself seems to wish to point the way for us here...

This colossal empire in the east is ripe for dissolution.

'Mein Kampf', p.553

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
ElTigre, taking Czechoslovakia was Hitler's undoing.

I thought being an opportunist megalomaniacal racist dictator was his undoing.

After all, that's what led to his decision to invade Poland in a quest for more 'Lebensraum'.