The Years of Rice and Salt

[lord of the mark]

Just started this.

General comments without spoiling?

Did Tamerlane in OTL really get close to Magyar region?

[Lonestar]

Re: The Years of Rice and Salt

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Just started this.

General comments without spoiling?

Did Tamerlane in OTL really get close to Magyar region?

No. Didn't make it across the Bospherous, IIRC.

[Eli]

What's OTL?

[VetLegion]

Our time line.

[Imran Siddiqui]

General comments? Well, it's an interesting book, mostly focused on spiritual questions as we go through the ages. It gets highly intra-textual at the end, which is really fun.

[Eli]

In addition to the too many pages wasted on Buddhist religious babble, I didn't like the fact that History was very similar to the real one. You get the same bloody war with waves upon waves of men sent against machine guns, etc.

Also, it didn't make any sense at all for the Native Americans to remain independent.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I actually thought the Buddhist religious stuff was great fun, especially if you assume in such a world that Buddhism has far greater influence than in our world. It is like our esteemed narrator is telling his idea of history through a Buddhist prism.

[lord of the mark]

ughh, just finished it.

I actually like the scenes in the Bardo, that was something new for me. But the "granola" buddist lectures got really preachy, espec toward the later chapters. Really a chore to get through. The first chapters, that were still more rooted in OTL history, were better. The description of Hangzhou was pretty good, and initial settlement of Firanjia. The Samarkand efflorescence kinda strained belief, but was just barely ok. The Travancori ind revolution and its internatinal ramifications was just wish fulfillment fantasy - how the hell have these folks pulled off an IR? They seem to not like private property, but the actual organization of their economy is not shown - property is simply conflated with other forms of exploitation. Its not clear if the other "progressive powers" share the aversion to property. Hodanusee is barely plausible - but what happened to the Aztecs? Wont they go down just like the Inka.

I dont remember the geography of Northern Calif well enough to judge the accuracy (though I never thought Tiburon Bay looked like the obvious place for a city), but the constant remarks on how silly it would be to build a city south of the Golden Gate was just "too cute" esp when he keeps repeating it.


His IR is terribly naive. Sure Travancore will support other "progressive" powers against china and Islam - but when China "goes progressive" will Travancore support it? Against national interest? Has KSR not heard of the Sino-Soviet rivalry? Or is Buddist-feminist-hipness exempt from the dynamics that afflicted historical Marxism Leninism?

And I really dont like the way he stacked the deck against abrahamic monotheism by having the only alternative versions of it be either A. Very conservative Islam or B. Radically anti-legalistic muslim heresies or C. a Sufism that is "almost Buddism" If OTL had a dispute over the possibility of itjihad, and the utility of a itjihad to modernize Islam, why wouldnt this TL? Why does this TL have as Islamic modernizers only radicals who want to deny the validity of the Hadiths? Is it that KSR has a problem with positivist-legalist modes of religious thought? (And where the hell are the Jews? In a TL where the Muslims take Europe, and half of America, and are, you dynamic, might one not expect that the Mizrahi Jews would take the role of OTL Ashkenazic Jews? Or couldnt KSR at least say why they dont? Is KSR a subscriber to the view of Ashkenazic genetic superiority, not shared by Mizrahi Jews? Or does he just want to avoid a positivist-legalist religious tradition to deal with, that would challenge his crunchy atheist-buddism? )


All in all, a good idea gone bad.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Or does he just want to avoid a positivist-legalist religious tradition to deal with, that would challenge his crunchy atheist-buddism?

Bingo.

I liked Red Mars, but found Blue Mars a bit difficult to get through because of how KSR kind of tries to beat you over the head with his socialist viewpoint. It comes through in YoRaS as well with his belief in a buddhist socialism that challenges the reactionaries. There is no middle ground for him. No moderates. It's kind of silly when you think about it.

[Eli]

Yeah. That's why I don't bother reading his latest books.

I tolerated his strong leftist bias in RGB Mars because the books were otherwise amazing, and The Years of Rice and Salt was weird but different and thus worth reading. But it just gets worse and worse. Despite everything I liked Antarctica because he really managed to get me to appreciate the beauty of the land. But just reading the synopsis of Forty Signs of Rain makes me go .

[Lancer]

Too much rice gets boring, even with the salt.

[Zkribbler]

Whooo hooo! Lancer lives!

Happy New Year to you, Dolores and Mente!

[Lancer]

Right back atchya Zkrib!