Politics debate continued from multiculturalism thread

[Ned]

BTW, KH, physics PhDs can do very well in the US.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Ned
Yeah, but applicants to US schools are the best of students from the entire world.

I am not sure you mentioned who applies to Canadian med schools. It might make a difference if those graduates can practice in the US after they are qualified in Canada. But it could be that a very large number of very mediocre students apply to Canadian schools if the pay they receive afterwords is no more than, let's say, the average physics Phd.

Why are you claiming this is the case? Are you saying that medical doctors have less passion for their work than physicists? I would hope that this isn't the case.

Jon Miller

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ned
Yeah, but applicants to US schools are the best of students from the entire world.

I am not sure you mentioned who applies to Canadian med schools. It might make a difference if those graduates can practice in the US after they are qualified in Canada. But it could be that a very large number of very mediocre students apply to Canadian schools if the pay they receive afterwords is no more than, let's say, the average physics Phd.

Uh, dude, I teach people who later apply to medical school. In the US. At a top medical school (the top medical school?).

They are not particularly smart. No more so than engineers, scientists or mathematicians.

And if you'd been paying attention you would have noted that I already mentioned that doctors in Canada are paid much more than PhDs in Canada.

Not to mention the fact that the average physics PhD would run circles around the average MD on any standardised test you care to name. So it's not like the mediocre intellects are forced into physics from medical schools.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Ned
Yeah, but applicants to US schools are the best of students from the entire world.

I am not sure you mentioned who applies to Canadian med schools. It might make a difference if those graduates can practice in the US after they are qualified in Canada. But it could be that a very large number of very mediocre students apply to Canadian schools if the pay they receive afterwords is no more than, let's say, the average physics Phd.

Originally posted by Ned
Huh?

Well, at least here in the US, it is very hard to get into Med School. I know, because my daughter had great grades from a top college, but still didn't make it 'till her second year. (She is about to begin her residency.)

This might demonstrate that there IS a difference between medicine in the US and the lands of socialism that is related to the quality of practicioners.

Um, Ned, it's the same in the UK. Even at a second tier medical school, the average grades are higher than for most courses at Oxbridge (universities ranked 2nd and 3rd in the world, ahead of MIT, Princeton, Yale, etc.). Yet in the UK, doctors are well paid, but a lot, lot less than by US standards. The truth is quite simple - a well-functioning labour market.

Very few people become doctors for the money. They become doctors because that's what they want to do, and thus as in any well-functioning labour market, they are paid enough that poor-pay isn't much of an issue, and not much more. Paying more money wouldn't get us better doctors. Why? Because we already have way, way too many people wanting to become doctors. Many of the very best an brightest, people with straight As in difficult subjects (the equivilent of a 4.0 GPA is necessary for any decent medical school, as any grade dropped over the last 4 years of schooling is likely to lead to a rejection). What purpose would we have of raising the wage for doctors?

Now, the reason this wouldn't work in exactly the same way in the US is the cost of medical school. In the UK a med student might leave with $35000 or so worth of debt, whereas it's likely to be nearer $200,000 in the US. This means wages have to be somewhat higher. However there is little competition between medicine and other employers, as a medicine degree is a very specific degree. Investment banks don't hire many MDs, neither do consultancy or accountancy firms, other large-wage industries. An MD degree is pretty much useless for this.

In short, wages being higher in the US tells you nothing of the quality of doctors.

[KrazyHorse]

http://motls.blogspot.com/2006/03/iq-in-different-fields.html

This uses average GRE scores from students in different fields in order to compute an "equivalent" IQ.

The other study I've seen actually used an IQ test and applied it to professors in different fields. Again, medicine came out significantly below most of the "hard" sciences.

US medical schools do not by any means draw the most intelligent students. They, in general, draw relatively intelligent hard-working students. Many of these students would have difficulty entering academic research in any of the hard sciences. They don't have nywhere else to go. Medicine is at a huge premium relative to other professions open to students of their abilities. Which is why the competition for med school is so fierce. But most of this competition is meaningless. The difference in abilities and work ethic between those who are accepted and those who are rejected is slight to nil.

[Ned]

Well, my daughter IS hardworking. She'll make a good doctor, I suspect.

[KrazyHorse]

I don't doubt it, Ned. And I have the utmost respect for doctors.

I'm simply asserting that the current level of remuneration for physicians is not necessary to ensure the supply of good doctors. Of course a higher salary is going to be necessary to draw people willing to sacrifice many years of their lives in school and in residence. I simply don't think it has to be so much higher than that for people in similar professions, which also require brains and hard work.

[Jon Miller]

Medicine is below Business!??!

JM
(of course, not at all surprised about the position of Physics)

[Lord Avalon]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that specialties are where the real money is. I don't know what things are like today, but I remember reading awhile back (sorry, no link) that there weren't enough general practioners/family practice docs, because people were going into specialties, and the US has more specialists than needed.

[Drogue]

Quite possibly. We face a similar problem, but one confined to rural practices - young doctors don't want to move into the country.

[Lord Avalon]

I think that's also an issue here - fewer GPs and also fewer GPs going to rural areas. So nurse practitioners (a nurse with an advanced degree) have filled in.