Such smugness, arrogance ...such insufferable moral superiority.

[Arrian]

Which is one of the reasons my opinion on the matter is under review.

I've been against a pullout for some time now (2003-present), hoping for progress toward something remotely resembling a desireable outcome. I haven't seen that progress. One might argue that three years isn't long enough, especially considering that we essentially pissed away the first year. But I'm getting more and more dubious that "victory" (however that is defined) is even possible anymore.

-Arrian

[KrazyHorse]

If nothing else positive comes out of this would at least hope that "you" (collectively) learned a lesson, but from what I've seen of the American war supporters here you haven't...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If nothing else positive comes out of this would at least hope that "you" (collectively) learned a lesson, but from what I've seen of the American war supporters here you haven't...

There are too many lessons, and they conflict.

[KrazyHorse]

There's one very simple one: be very, very careful about what wars you start and how much you trust your own leaders' words.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

It wasn't that funny, because his comment was derived more from historical ignorance than wit.

[Kuciwalker]

By the way, how did this thread get onto this threadjack? I thought it was about KH

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
There's one very simple one: be very, very careful about what wars you start and how much you trust your own leaders' words.

Or: When you remove a regime, have a well developed political strategy. Turn the govt over to the locals immediately, cause folks hate occupation. Or dont turn the govt over for years, cause liberalism must precede democracy. Or, have enough troops. Or, have a competent occupation administration. Or, achieve real bipartisan cooperation before the war starts. Or, when youve got a guy like Sadr, kill him when you get the chance, even if its costly short term. Or, dont disband the defeated local military. Or, dont get into the situation, by failing to support a local rebellion (like the one in 1991). Or, have a President who can articulate the rationale and strategy well. Or, when youre attacked, mobilize, instead of asking people to go shopping.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian


Which, IIUC, was deemed out of bounds b/c it would've meant full, open war with China.
-Arrian

What do you think Korea was?

It was war with China, but we kept one hand tied behind our backs.

[Ned]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If nothing else positive comes out of this would at least hope that "you" (collectively) learned a lesson, but from what I've seen of the American war supporters here you haven't...

We are about to re-learn the lesson of Vietnam and of Korea, that half-assed wars are unwinnable. Dems got us into Korea and Vietnam. Republicans are going take the blame for this one.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Or...

You're falling into the trap of believing that "if only" things would have worked out perfectly.

When you fight a war you take a risk that it's going to turn to ****. This in spite of even the best planning (which was manifestly not present) in a case where the objectives are straightforward (which they were not).

It's a roll of the dice. Every time.

[Ned]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Or: When you remove a regime, have a well developed political strategy. Turn the govt over to the locals immediately, cause folks hate occupation. Or dont turn the govt over for years, cause liberalism must precede democracy. Or, have enough troops. Or, have a competent occupation administration. Or, achieve real bipartisan cooperation before the war starts. Or, when youve got a guy like Sadr, kill him when you get the chance, even if its costly short term. Or, dont disband the defeated local military. Or, dont get into the situation, by failing to support a local rebellion (like the one in 1991). Or, have a President who can articulate the rationale and strategy well. Or, when youre attacked, mobilize, instead of asking people to go shopping.

Good summary.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ned


We are about to re-learn the lesson of Vietnam and of Korea, that half-assed wars are unwinnable. Dems got us into Korea and Vietnam. Republicans are going take the blame for this one.

Korea worked out quite nicely, actually.

The real lesson you should take is to not start a war until you have the Canadians on board. You're 0 for 2 without us and about 5/5 with us.

[Ned]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


You're falling into the trap of believing that "if only" things would have worked out perfectly.

When you fight a war you take a risk that it's going to turn to ****. This in spite of even the best planning (which was manifestly not present) in a case where the objectives are straightforward (which they were not).

It's a roll of the dice. Every time.

True.

But if you are not willing to do what is necessay to win when the stakes are low, you will eventually lose when the stakes are higher. That is why I referred to Carthage.

One also has to ask how the Eastern Roman Empire, fresh off defeating the Persians, could have lost virtually everything to the Arabs. An early victory against this invader could have saved the Empire from its eventually demise at the hands of the Turks in 1453.

[Ned]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Korea worked out quite nicely, actually.

The real lesson you should take is to not start a war until you have the Canadians on board. You're 0 for 2 without us and about 5/5 with us.

KH, you have a point.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Ned


What do you think Korea was?

It was war with China, but we kept one hand tied behind our backs.

You ignored the bit about the USSR. Yes, China intervened in the Korean war and thus we fought China, albeit only within Korea. I wasn't around then, but it is my understanding that our leadership believed that attacking China directly could have drawn the USSR into the war, which obviously nobody wanted.

One hand tied behind our backs... Korea was a limited war, yes, precisely because we did not want to fight a total war. And there were valid reasons for that.

-Arrian