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  • Supreme court and integration

    The Supreme court is going to decide if racial classification based on race, to achieve integration, is constitutional.



    WASHINGTON (AFP) - The Supreme Court heard arguments over how US schools try to promote racial balance, appearing to back the goal of integration but not necessarily the means used to achieve it.
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    "There is a terrible problem in the country," said Justice
    Stephen Breyer, referring to the lack of racial diversity in the country's public schools.

    "The school boards are struggling with this problem. If they knew an easy way, they'd do it," he said.

    In 2003, in a 5-4 decision, the justices ruled that universities could take race into account in their admissions criteria to promote racial integration, as long as it was one of many factors and that quotas were not set.

    The high court on Monday examined school assignment policies for high schools in Seattle in the Pacific Northwest state of Washington and in elementary schools in Louisville, Kentucky, two cities where whites and blacks live in mostly segregated neighborhoods.

    Parents whose children were not able to attend the school of their choice -- due to policies that require a certain racial balance -- have sued their school districts arguing that classifying children based on race is unconstitutional.

    Backed by the US government, the plaintiffs also argue that the policy distorts a landmark 1954 Supreme Court decision, "Brown versus Board of Education of Topeka," which barred racial segregation in schools.

    Justice
    Antonin Scalia, known as a staunch conservative in his views, has often weighed in on the side of the parents opposed to the desegregation policies.

    "Even if the objective is OK, you cannot achieve it by any means whatever," Scalia said at the hearing.

    But more liberal justices have held that promoting racial balance is an overriding interest.

    During the proceedings, dozens of people protested outside the court building in support of programs designed to promote racial integration.

    The rules in effect in Louisville are a more moderate version of a mandatory desegregation plan that was imposed by a federal court in 1975 and which expired in 2000.

    Justice
    Ruth Bader Ginsburg called the situation in Louisville "very odd," with rules once deemed obligatory now being questioned as unconstitutional.

    The desegration rules for schools could not be compared to "affirmative action" policies, Justice
    David Souter said.

    When affirmative action sets quotas by race in order to guarantee diversity, someone of another race necessarily gets bumped. However, Souter pointed out, in the cases before the court, no child was denied an education in the school districts.

    The justice who cast the deciding vote in the 2003 case involving racial balance at public universities, Justice
    Sandra Day O'Connor, stepped down from the high court last year and has been replaced by a more conservative jurist,
    Samuel Alito.

    A justice often considered a possible swing vote in many cases,
    Anthony Kennedy, displayed a skeptical attitude toward the school districts' approach, saying it could result in racial discrimination.

    "You know, it's like saying everybody can have a meal but only people with separate skin can get the dessert," he said.

    My former school district uses a plan like this, like many other districts around the country. It will be interesting to see what the effect on integration will be if the Supreme court decides to rule these plans unconstitutional, which is the position it seems to be leaning towards.
    Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. -Homer

  • #2
    We've moved from "separate but equal" to "integrated but equal"....Teh racism
    Eventis is the only refuge of the spammer. Join us now.
    Long live teh paranoia smiley!

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    • #3
      That comment made zero sense.
      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
      "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
      He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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      • #4
        This issue was already decided in the 1973 Bakke decision...race can be considered as a factor in school admissions but quotas cannot be set. (See ¶ 4 of the article.)

        This appears to be just another right wing attempt to roll back attempts at integration.

        Terrific. South Africa now has racial intergration and gay marriage. The U.S. is going the other way. Who'd have thought that one day, South Africa would be a freer society than the U.S.?

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        • #5
          It's very likely that race will no longer be allowed to be considered a factor, since SCOTUS had let this case languish until they added another conservative. It's back to the bad old days.
          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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          • #6
            Everything seems to hang on Kennedy and judging by his past actions on affirmative action and his questioning in oral argument it seems unlikely he will vote to uphold the programs.
            Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. -Homer

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Zkribbler
              This issue was already decided in the 1973 Bakke decision...race can be considered as a factor in school admissions but quotas cannot be set. (See ¶ 4 of the article.)

              This appears to be just another right wing attempt to roll back attempts at integration.

              Terrific. South Africa now has racial intergration and gay marriage. The U.S. is going the other way. Who'd have thought that one day, South Africa would be a freer society than the U.S.?
              SA freer than U.S.? You're crazy.
              ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
              ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

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              • #8
                Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                It's very likely that race will no longer be allowed to be considered a factor, since SCOTUS had let this case languish until they added another conservative. It's back to the bad old days.
                Yes, how terrible that totalitarian racists like yourself won't be able to disrupt the lives of the average citizen in the name of 'diversity'.
                ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

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                • #9
                  So would we go to a system based on arbitrary geographic areas aka School districts with all students residing in the district going to that school period.

                  If that were to case then schools would just reflect the level of segragation found in the local comunity. It was the hope of liberals that rising Black affluence and anti-housing discrimination would lead to mixed neiborhoods. But from what I've read the new black middle class has for the most part prefered to create a whole new animal the Middle class black neiborhood. The mixed neiborhoods haven't formed and people are fed-up with quotas and bussing.

                  Overall I'm more concerned with Economic segragation then racial segragation.
                  Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

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                  • #10
                    Overall I'm more concerned with Economic segragation then racial segragation
                    I tend to agree. Which is not to say that racism isn't still a problem. It is, but it seems to me that poor kids being stuck with terrible schools and rich kids having nice schools is an even larger problem. The race thing tends to overlay that... but the fact is that a wealthy black kid whose family moves to a posh town will go to a nice posh school.

                    I think the way schools are funded is fundamentally screwed up.

                    -Arrian
                    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
                      So would we go to a system based on arbitrary geographic areas aka School districts with all students residing in the district going to that school period.

                      If that were to case then schools would just reflect the level of segragation found in the local comunity. It was the hope of liberals that rising Black affluence and anti-housing discrimination would lead to mixed neiborhoods. But from what I've read the new black middle class has for the most part prefered to create a whole new animal the Middle class black neiborhood. The mixed neiborhoods haven't formed and people are fed-up with quotas and bussing.

                      Overall I'm more concerned with Economic segragation then racial segragation.
                      Well they could just say the end was justifiable but not the means in which they tried to accomplish that goal were unconstitutional. Some school districts have school choice plans were kids can pick any school they want to go to in the county. But they problem with that is the best schools get overcrowded so a lot of people who want to go to the best schools have to settle for the worse ones. Some districts use free lunch, like limiting the percentage of students at a school that are on the free lunch program.

                      If you want to fix economic segregation you would probably have to overhaul the way schools are funded. There was a court case that originated from texas, where some parents sued because of the property tax scheme texas used to fund their schools, but the SC upheld the program on a rational basis test.
                      Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. -Homer

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                      • #12
                        I've thought for some time now that school funding should be moved from property tax to income tax.

                        But it's not just the $$. Some schools in poor areas actually pay well, but the best teachers don't want to teach there. I know most of my teacher friends regarded teaching in "innercity" type schools to be "doing their time" until they could escape to nicer districts. In order to lure better teachers to underperforming schools, more is required... but I confess I don't know what "more" is.

                        -Arrian
                        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Arrian

                          But it's not just the $$. Some schools in poor areas actually pay well, but the best teachers don't want to teach there. I know most of my teacher friends regarded teaching in "innercity" type schools to be "doing their time" until they could escape to nicer districts. In order to lure better teachers to underperforming schools, more is required... but I confess I don't know what "more" is.

                          -Arrian
                          Yep. Its not necessarilyabout the money although the money makes a difference in who decides to be a teacher in the first place.

                          I believe the problem is a matter of social prioritizationof education. If the local social structures including family don't value or prioritze education you end up with a thankless job of trying to motivate a bunch of children who see no value in learning. Its no wonder even great teachers feel they are simply "doing time".
                          "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                          “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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                          • #14
                            Agreed, Ogie, it's partly a cultural issue.

                            The degree to which it's "uncool" to try in school always frustrated me. It's a general attitude that seems fairly pervasive in American society (nerds! ha-ha!), leaving aside variations along cultural/ethnic lines.

                            As for money being a factor on who decides to become a teacher, well yeah, clearly. But I have to say, I didn't chose against becoming a teacher b/c it doesn't pay well... my teacher friends get similar money to what I get and they get the summer off. It's the stress of dealing with the bureacracy on the one hand and the parents on the other. The kids themselves (so I'm told) aren't as difficult. That's of course in the nice suburbs.

                            One of my friends thrives on the bureacratic BS. He's an odd one (Jewish potsmoking teacher, union rep, registered, devout Republican). The others are strained by it.

                            -Arrian
                            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                            • #15
                              1) Let kids go to any school they want; however,

                              2) Provide that schools admissions must assure a racial balance of the of an area, i.e., a cicle, square, or whatever, that encompases its own school district and all adjacent districts.

                              You could have all black or all white schools, but there must be all blacks or all white in the neighborhoods for some distance. But a black shool district surrounded in all directions by white neighborhoods, just might come out 20% black and 80% white.

                              A key to stopping segregation is to stop the requirement that kid go only to their local school and have no form of voucher.

                              I think quotas are just fine. However, we still have to deal with Bakke.
                              http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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