Legalise Heroin Now!

[MikeH]

I'm also in favour of prescription heroin for problem users to mitigate the crime issues.

Heroin is actually not that debilitating if you have a regular clean supply.

[MOBIUS]

I'm not sure about legalization, but decriminalization could be a good thing. Portugal decriminalized heroin, cocaine, etc. in 2001 and it seems they're better off.

I'll be in Lisbon in a couple of weeks - not to do any drugs though...

[Cort Haus]

also elok, no one here is arguing that heroin is great or that people should be using it. the fact is that there will be a significant number of problem users, whether it is legal or illegal, so it's a question how to deal with that. in my opinion, the best way is to legalise and tax it, and use some of the money to fund education programs for the general population and treatment programs for addicts. i notice that no one has actually produced an argument against this...

[C0ckney]

Exactly C0ckney.

I'd never take heroin. No matter it's legal status.

i think most people feel the same way. unfortunately it's a myth that's perpetuated by opponents of legalisation that if drugs were legalised then everyone would be smacking up.

I'm also in favour of prescription heroin for problem users to mitigate the crime issues.

Heroin is actually not that debilitating if you have a regular clean supply

see, i'm quite sceptical about things like that, the idea of actually paying for someone's habit is not one i'm comfortable with. i'm also sceptical about treatment programs that just 'park' people on methadone, because i think the main focus of drug treatment should be to get people off drugs. from my own (obviously limited and anecdotal) experience of such programs, they tend to be abused and don't do a lot to help people sort themselves out.

[MikeH]

Mainly I'd see it as something to tide you over until treatment places are available. And I'd rather pay for their heroin than have my house burgled to fund their habit. I'm probably already paying for it in increased insurance and policing anyway.

[C0ckney]

yeah that's a fair point. my concern is that, like with a lot of methadone based programs, people would just end up in the same situation for years, and it would just be easier for whoever is responsible for that person to just keep them on the prescription smack, rather than offering real treatment.

of course the real solution is to have enough funding and places available to provide high quality drug treatment and therapy, as well as ancillary services to help people take their lives in a different direction.

[MikeH]

We can pay for it out of the Heroin tax.

[C0ckney]

exactly

[Elok]

Yes, yes, all very nice with your fancy graphs etc pointing at heroin being super evil...

But you're ignoring a couple of things:

1) We are talking about what is more dangerous to society as a whole and therefore not necessarily the individual - alcohol trumps heroin hands down!

Yes, because a lot more people use it. The reason a lot more people use it is that alcohol is generally safe and far less addictive.

2) You keep ignoring the fact that the main thing that makes heroin, crack, coke etc so deadly is the virulently nasty **** (often literally poison!) that often gets cut with it - perhaps alcohol might be a tad more deadly if its manufacturing processes weren't monitored in an illegal environment where the producers clearly don't care in the first place about their users dying from it...?

Care to provide a source for "uncut heroin is safe?" I'll even be real nice and refrain from dismissing it as a "fancy graph."

Take alcohol consumption in Russia for instance:

Once you start drinking alcohol not fit for human consumption, the death rates spiral upwards at a colossal rate...

It may surprise you to learn that alcohol consumption is legal in Russia. Legal alcohol, in this instance, has not kept the booze clean. If anything, that article undermines your point. Meanwhile, my Dad has been having a beer with dinner every night since before I was born, with no adverse effects beyond a slight beer gut.

[MikeH]

Alcohol is incredibly dangerous, massively addictive. 5% of UK adults alcolholics?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1012007.stm

Thousands of deaths a year, including more overdoses than every other drug put together. An overdose being where someone drinks themselves to death in one sitting rather than long term alcohol related illness. We have plenty of incredibly dangerous and addictive drugs that are either legal or prescribed.

http://www.tdpf.org.uk/MediaNews_FactResearchGuide_DrugRelatedDeaths.htm

[B]Drug[/B]                        [B]Deaths[/B]
Heroin and morphine         713
Methadone                   241
Cocaine (including crack)   190
All amphetamines            92
(of which MDMA/ecstasy)     48
Cannabis                    17
Gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB)	 7
All benzodiazepines	       177
Zopiclone/Zolpides          39
Barbiturates                17
All antidepressants        336
Paracetamol                287
Codeine                     60
Dihydrocodeine              96
Aspirin                     22
Tramadol                    81
Alcohol*                 6,627
Tobacco**               86,500

[Jon Miller]

It would be better if the use was estimated and included.

JM

[MikeH]

Yes, it would.

But my point is that Alcohol is most definitely not safe. It's incredibly addictive and lethal.

[Elok]

also elok, no one here is arguing that heroin is great or that people should be using it. the fact is that there will be a significant number of problem users, whether it is legal or illegal, so it's a question how to deal with that. in my opinion, the best way is to legalise and tax it, and use some of the money to fund education programs for the general population and treatment programs for addicts. i notice that no one has actually produced an argument against this...

My only "argument" was that Moby's Lancet study was flagrantly dishonest horse****. I'm skeptical about legalization of something as nasty as heroin, but it may work. My main concern is that, once it's legalized, prices are going to drop precipitously even with taxes. That is going to make it somewhat more attractive--heroin is really expensive at present, no? I don't know how much more attractive, but it's about the most addictive drug on the streets, so an initial attraction is going to be powerful, and if it becomes more prevalent society will still pay in terms of added health-care costs. And you can't pay for rising health-care, AND treatment programs, AND awareness campaigns, AND inspections to make sure all the crap being sold isn't cut with arsenic or what-have-you, all off of one tax. Unless the tax is huge, in which case you might have a lot of people simply dodge the regulations.

I'm fine with legalizing and taxing pot, generally (it shouldn't be smoked in public and I'm concerned about stoned drivers), but I'd rather see more data on Portugal before we go legalizing heroin. They've only decriminalized individual possession, not taken it off the streets entirely. Two different things.

[Jon Miller]

Yes, it would.

But my point is that Alcohol is most definitely not safe. It's incredibly addictive and lethal.

Yeah, this is why I support not drinking.

Although I do enjoy a drink occasionally.

JM

[MikeH]

Elok: No, heroin is very cheap. A few pounds per hit. Cheaper than a pint of beer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/8104959.stm