How we got screwed by the president

[Pekka]

Long story short, Finland launched into a deep recession in the early 90s. There's lots of reasons for this, but not the least that money was cheap.

It was worse than the WWII created for us. So you can understand, it was devastating to businesses. GNP took a 13% dive in less than 3 years, unemployment charged up from 3.5% to 18%. These kind of figures, especially in a welfare state, well you understand the consequences, devastation economically. And who suffers the most? It's the normal citizen of course. Small businesses went down, left and right. Business was BAD. So tons of people got kicked out and tons of people fell down to their ass with their small business and the government kicked their faces in!

Now what makes me think is the actions of the president. I'll get back to this after I describe why we took a dive, and unfortunately our citizens still do not get the picture. That is, because they have better things to do, like watch TV and scratch their butts.

SOme of the reasons were force majoure. SU collapsed, that was our big business partner, we had lots of exporting and business.

But our banks fubared pretty good as well. They were promoting cheap money, there was a great drive going on so hey let's keep it rolling, right?

But what they did at the same time, while SU was collapsing, of course they don't read the news, is that everyone wanted to keep the currency strong. Germany was unified again, interest rates went up, currency stayed strong. It was like a law, keep the currency strong, while giving loans to everyone, how much money you want? Hey, want to start a business? I don't care if it's a good idea, here's some money, it's cheap.

So what happened was, that went the slide downwards started, it went all straight to hell. THe industry was not competitive anymore (strong currency), people with loans started to have problems, because they were given so easily and they were big, people got kicked off from their jobs, so service industry took a dive, small service businesses went out, more unemployment, more welfare, it was a vicious cycle.

So some of it was unavoidable. But the banks did us a favor, by doign business.. I mean it's not like they are here to 'hey get some free money', they are here to do a business, so they took a dive. They went straight to the lowest echelon of whatever, and what did the president decide to do? The decision makers decided to save the banks who fubared their own business and couldn't predict anything but functioned calling shots asking their kids on morning table what to do next, so .. they fubared their own action and the government decides to help them. THat cost a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of money.

OK. We help them. But where does that money come from? That comes from the pockets of the people. OK? Did the small guys get help from the government? No. Did the banks or DO the banks now give some of them clemency? No. The banks are still getting their money from the people. That's great business I must say.

I don't know who gave who sausage massages but must of been one helluva massage. And we have high taxes anyway, what happened was that people lost lots of income, but that wasn't helped at all. Screw the people. Screw them out of their money, we don't care, let's help this bank and then this bank, even though they fubared.

The people who backed up loans, who were many times kids of parents who set up a business, or went down as the result of the recession, they are still persecuted from their money. Like hundreds of thousands, are they getting breaks? No.

It's BS that's what it is, and I'm saying, the decision makers, the few people who decided for these things, they should take responsibility over this, there's still high unemployment that seems to be structural now and we can't get rid off it. Most likely beucase the same people are STILL in charge, that is incompeteny reigns and keeps waving the flag of impotence victoriously.

OK so what's the point, people make mistakes.. the point is, why should I pay ANY taxes at all, since we are still paying for that crap today, I mean, is my money going to pay my services? Sure, but mostly we have been paying for this crap. No wonder services get worse and worse and everything more expensive, the country has been run by complete idiots, village loonies.

I think it is immoral, that we still keep leeching people over this and keep the claim that yes, if you ever speak against taxes, you want homeless people dead. THat's just the level of incompetency we are dealing with. Those fat slobs shoud be fired, just like lots of otehr people did, who did their best and were competent. But these fat slobs gets to keep their jobs and **** things up a decade later? And most likely in the next decade as well. People who screw up that big lose their jobs in normal business, but in government business, they get massages from those who benefited from that. And we keep voting the same jackasses to power, because that's the best we know.

So in a way, we are to blame as well. But I'm not voting any of these fools anymore. I'm voting, but I'm voting as a protest. I think it's stupid that we should pay for their screw ups, screw ups that weren't supposed to be paid by us. I mean, what kind of bills do we get next? What kind of idiocy bill do we get to pay, I hope it's in the billions at least.

Maybe we can screw up again, not hold the fubarers responsible but rather take billions of loans from others, and then spend the next few decades paying that debt from our money, and let the responsible ones not only get government welfared back to life, but also actually retroactively benefit from their own screw up by holding the little man STILL responsible.

That is a beautiful scam.

[Nubclear]

Poetic justice for resisting the Soviet Union.

[laurentius]

I think our Pres was just a little slow on catching up the 80ties optimism.



(Do agree on most accounts though, he made some other bad calls as well during those crazy years in Europe. I think it can be argued his presidency was among the most diffucult after WW2 so I'd cut him some slack. Besides it was the Bank of Finland, Commercial Banks and non-existant Financial Authorities who should have seen it coming and pulled the plug on cheap loans. So with my 3rd year economics students perspective they were the ones who were the biggest **** ups. All in all the great recession was the sum of multiple simultanius failures and severe shocks in demand.)

[Pekka]

Tass, hey man, that time we weren't resisting, we were cooperating in such magnitude that we ended up paying for it when SU collapsed

laurentius, yeah definitely. But I refuse to defend him. He should have had all the info to make that educated decision. He should have known the implications of that decision. Hindsight is 20/20, but this is not rocket science, I mean that very particular decision. So I must believe that he did it on purpose.

And yeah, the banks and especially Bank of Finland were the biggest screw ups. I agree. So.. and this must have been evident, so the decision to give them mouth to mouth with a boner was I think unethical.

And today, I think today that this has come to better light, the people who got.. like the kids who backed up the business of their parents, who spend the rest of their lives paying it back from every single euro they make, I think many of them should be given clemency.

Why do I think so? Because the people paid so much money doing that mouth to mouth, so now when the dead gets up, the first thing he does is knocks down the life guards and start roaming on their collective asses? I don't think so, why should they be able to make profit from this? THey should stfu and think about how they avoid such things in the future. They should give free coffee and danishes to everyone for a year, shake some hands and give us a smile.

It's not only those billions lost, it's the foreign debt, it's all the lost revenue, it's all the unemployment that still is here, all the services that had to be cut, everything. So much money lost, not just the foreign debt and other money. Besides they have interest rates too.

We are still paying for it. And this government tells us to shut up and keep paying the taxes. To be frank, I should be able to question their authority over this, challenge and get some debate going on. People should be held responsible. How many suicides can be contributed to this, I don't know, families broken up, the price that has been paid and still is left paid can't be even measured.

So next time when we come to make such decisions, I hope there's challengers out there who challenge the view and says no way, you don't even have the ethical authority to call that shot and overturn it. I don't know if anyone has ever checked out if it was even legal, I don't know maybe it was legal though.

[Pekka]

And here's.. I mean this is my big point I hope the leftists carefully listen, and the people who like higher taxes. Why should we, the people, pay for the screw up to save few businesses, when it means the collapse of thousands of smaller businesses, tens of thousands of families etc, and plagues us for few decades at least?

That money comes from our taxes, why should we pay those taxes, that is basically earmarked for business welfare, so they can in return rape us when they are strong enough? Lots of papers must have been shredded during those days, but the ones that had the names of backers of loans, especially those who were 18 years old up to 25, those papers were hid to the mountains so they can be retrieved and they can be used later on.

Why do we justify the payment of taxes, because the bill is so big that this is where the money goes anyway. I understand that we need to have services, we need to help the really poor ones, but that's it. We don't need to pay for these kinds of decisions, because then the money goes to that, not the poor or the services.

[Pekka]

You could even have an add that says, hey good news, we just paid 2 billion more of our foreign debt, now only hundred years to go. This year we had to cut 100 million from health care and education, cut x, y and z. But overall good news.

You know, that's just an add for 'hello citizen. I am your chosen representor Jack McDoodoobrain. This is the bill that you paid from my **** up. Thanks! And this is what we still have to do because of that... Vote for Jack!'.

[Nubclear]

That money comes from our taxes, why should we pay those taxes,

You shouldn't pay *those* taxes.

[Pekka]

That's right, but we were never given the option. If you don't pay your taxes, men with gun will knock on your door. Hey, in here, you go to jail to serve time for fines not paid. So in that kind of atmosphere, yeah you can NOT pay your taxes and get your life screwed up.

Would you be willing to pay taxes, when 99% of that goes to few businesses, a thing settled by few people? I don't think you'd be happy about taht. Government has a big responsibility to use tax money, it should be spent accordingly in the areas we see it should be sepnt, that is services and helping those who can't afford anything. Or at the very least, why should your business go down so that someone elses business can live? that's life, but why should you pay for that even today? THat's messed up.

[Nubclear]

Take control of your government, then.

[laurentius]

Sure most of the indebted should be given clemency. They have paid what they owed many times over now in punitive intrests. I mean the government bailed out the banks with billions of euros worth of CPR so in my opinion the people who were in the wrong place(bank asking loan) on the wrong time (1988-92) should be given their lives back. Or whats left of it since many people have be totally distroyed by this.

Billions lost...well you know we were already living on a borrowed time in the 1980ties. The structural reform came as a big shock but in hindsight it was good that it came at all. The stellar performance of Finnish economy from mid-90ties to early 2000 wouldnt have been possible if there werent extremely strong incentives to reform the economy and refocus on hi-tech electronics industry.

Without the great recession of the early 90ties, Finland would most likely be worst off than its now. The foreign dbt isnt so much of a problem that certain political parties want to make it look like. They just want to scare people with numbers mostly. The unemployment is looking better and better all the time given the circumstances and the fact that re-education for many over 50 year olds is not an option.

As I said it was the optimism that got us into that mess. Thinking that a tiny nation like Finland could actually defend its currency when Soros forced the UK out of the ERM was just plain madness. Everyone for their own part was responsible though. Throwing people to the mob just isnt intelligent handeling of things. The people who took the cheap loans are just as responsible for their ignorance as the bosses,bankers and politicians.

[Pekka]

Tass, I'm just a shouter. And what happened has happened.

However, I woudl like to see a COMPREHENSIVE study about this decision, about recession, about the bills and how our tax money is used.

This is to say, I want to see how the debt has been paid, and how our money is being used and the affects of those decisions. What I want to see is how direct taxation provides us our services, and how do we pay for this debt and consequences.

If there's a clear sign and proof, that we are mostly only paying for this decision, I'd like to see someone suing people.

[Pekka]

laurentius, right, right. I'm only after the decision to give mouth to mouth here. That's the only decision I'm after here, and how it has brought down many people and how everyone paid for it and pays for it. I'd like to see some good studies.

[laurentius]

Well Pekka all I can do is advice you to stude economics for a while. Thats how you come into understand how the national economy works.

Suing people and **** are for immature adults either not willing to take responsibility or not being able to cooperate on the changing world.

And you know without the debt we took as a nation the economy would most likely have totally collapsed leaving you polishing shoes on the streets. It actually came quite close that that in 1994 when the state seriously began to run out of money. Even the emergency laws were already drafted.

[Pekka]

"Suing people and **** are for immature adults either not willing to take responsibility "

I'd just like to see some responsibility for the decision makers as well. That is WHEN the decision was a strong one that woudl have implications and the basis of it is not clear.

I'm looking for the connection between income tax being collected and used to give mouth to mouth and the connection between direct taxation and its usage to give services. How much of that income tax has been used to give mouth to mouth. That is of my interest.

[Nubclear]

Yep....In capitalism, some people have to be poor. They are acceptable casualties, collateral damage for the rest of society, or for the mother country, or for the good of the corporation, or for the good of some country far far away