Domesticated animals question.

[chequita guevara]

I've had buffalo burger. I wasn't impressed. Tasted like beef to me.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I've had buffalo burger. I wasn't impressed. Tasted like beef to me.

Well if it tasted like a turnip people wouldn't be eating it now would they?

[GePap]

Is the Bison actually "domesticated"?

Are they used as draft animals, or can they pull plows? Because the main point of Diamond was being able to use animal power, not just using animals for meat or even milk. Its in using animals to make more lands open up for agriculture, or to move materials that domesticated animals make their biggest contribution to development of large civilizations.

[OzzyKP]

It seems Oerdin's point still stands though. Regardless of the reasons, the Native Americans had an available animal that fits the criteria Diamond put forward as the prime reason for Eurasia's development.

[GePap]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
It seems Oerdin's point still stands though. Regardless of the reasons, the Native Americans had an available animal that fits the criteria Diamond put forward as the prime reason for Eurasia's development.

not really. Diamond broached his issue with the Zebra, which, like the Bison and the horse, is a large social mammal. And yet Zebras have never been domesticated due to their recalcitrant behavior.

[Dinner]

I don't think the bison is being used as a draft animal but to be fair there aren't many animals used as draft animals in North America these days. When that does happen it is for show. I imagine that if we were still in the 19th century and animal power mattered then bison could possibly be trained like a cow or ox. That is just a guess though.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap


not really. Diamond broached his issue with the Zebra, which, like the Bison and the horse, is a large social mammal. And yet Zebras have never been domesticated due to their recalcitrant behavior.

True, he said the Zebra is worse then any unbroken horse and is almost impossible to break plus it loves to bit, kick, and attack people who get to close to it. I continue to believe that most horses and cows did the same thing at first however people selected the most agreeable animals for breeding so over time domesticated cows became geneticly different from wild cows.

If someone wanted to put in the energy and time the same could theoretically be done for bison though now that we have machines (and prior to that we had Eurasian animals) so no one bothers to actually do it. The carribou, like the reindeer, is used to pull sleds in Siberia so it would seem that if a resourceful native wanted to domesticate them then it could have happened. I guess it was cultural or perhaphes that other then the dog Eskimos never saw domesticated animals until Europeans arrived.

[OzzyKP]

Also for the arguments that domesticating bison was impractical and undesirable for the nomadic plains indians, the range of the bison was much larger than that.

http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?id=97#sid14

I'd definitely wager that the bison were known to the more settled cultures of Mexico.

[Dinner]

The eastern US tribes also practiced agriculture so they were settled. What's more is those same groups successfully domesticated the turkey. Maybe the bison was just to big or to dangerous in some way.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I don't think the bison is being used as a draft animal but to be fair there aren't many animals used as draft animals in North America these days. When that does happen it is for show. I imagine that if we were still in the 19th century and animal power mattered then bison could possibly be trained like a cow or ox. That is just a guess though.

They're mean, temperamental, bad-tempered sons of *****es. You'd get more done pulling the plow or wagon yourself.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Also for the arguments that domesticating bison was impractical and undesirable for the nomadic plains indians, the range of the bison was much larger than that.

Habitat range doesn't address population density and frequency of use. Bison went pretty much wherever they could go, if there was forage and the weather wasn't severe.

I'd definitely wager that the bison were known to the more settled cultures of Mexico.

Except for the possibility of limited trade in bison products, you'd be wrong. There's a lot of desert and hostile country between the northernmost Mexican indians who had opportunity to hunt bison (primarily Yaqui) and the Aztec, Maya and their empire boundaries.

Most of the southern desert incursion of bison was down along the Gila river, (which also used have beaver) and the Rio Grande, when northern winters were particularly harsh and southern winters were particularly wet.

[OzzyKP]

Corn found its way from Mexico to the Andes and into the eastern United States. Turkeys found their way from the US to Mexico. There were active trade networks in existance.

I'm sure bison could have been brought across those deserts and rivers into the more civilized regions south of there. But also, as Oerdin pointed out the eastern peoples were agricultural and settled and they most definitely co exisited with the bison.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Oerdin


True, he said the Zebra is worse then any unbroken horse and is almost impossible to break plus it loves to bit, kick, and attack people who get to close to it. I continue to believe that most horses and cows did the same thing at first however people selected the most agreeable animals for breeding so over time domesticated cows became geneticly different from wild cows.

If someone wanted to put in the energy and time the same could theoretically be done for bison though now that we have machines (and prior to that we had Eurasian animals) so no one bothers to actually do it. The carribou, like the reindeer, is used to pull sleds in Siberia so it would seem that if a resourceful native wanted to domesticate them then it could have happened. I guess it was cultural or perhaphes that other then the dog Eskimos never saw domesticated animals until Europeans arrived.

Firstly, some animals are genetically rendered impossible to domesticate. The ability of the zebra to resist diseases in Africa would make it extremely valuable if it could be domesticated. For this reason, it has been repeatedly attempted by experts in the field. But with all of our modern experience, no-one has succeeded.

Bison are not quite so ornery, but still require steel fencing and gates and motorized vehicles to manage.

In addition, they cannot be used to plow fields or drive water pumps.

As wild Bison were abundant as meat source, and useless as a plow animal, there was no benefit to domestication.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Corn found its way from Mexico to the Andes and into the eastern United States. Turkeys found their way from the US to Mexico. There were active trade networks in existance.

I'm sure bison could have been brought across those deserts and rivers into the more civilized regions south of there. But also, as Oerdin pointed out the eastern peoples were agricultural and settled and they most definitely co exisited with the bison.

Corn doesn't need to eat on the trip, and you can feed the turkeys on corn. How exactly would you propose to move a live bison through close to 1000 miles of inhospitable terrain? More importantly, why would you bother, since they couldn't be induced to breed in captivity? A salted buffalo gonad as a trade item, maybe, but a whole live bison? Good luck.