Intriquing scenario

[Pekka]

So there is scientific evidence and all that jazz, that modern human can be traced back to at least 35 000 years. That is when art started to appear, personal ornaments, all kinds of descriptions via art, thus some kind of language was most likely there and at least thinking.

So if we consider modern human to be someone who can think, therefore communicate etc, develop things.. this brings a very interesting scenario proposed by the science world..

They know the modern human came to Europe in then, 35 000 years ago. So, at the same time around, there were still neanderthals. But they were clearly different species. But both human. Two species of human in the same region, and the modern human came there. So they must have encountered each other, and at the same time modern human came, neanderthals disappeared.

Brain was able to overcome neanderthal, physically superior but still, not so much of a thinking one.

So did they have a war? DId they go at it, finishing each other off and in the aftermath the modern human won naturally?

That scenario is interesting if it happened. Truly remarkable scenario, adn the notion that there were two human species encountring each other is really really intriquing.

[DaShi]

35,000 years and you'd think we'd have solved a lot more problems like war, poverty, and finding a safe answer to "Does this make me look fat?"

[Pekka]

.. I think they had a .. bigger list of problems then, and we've narrowed the list down quite a bit.

I'm just interested by the idea of two different human species seeing each other for the first time and not having a clue what's up. And them both realizing that even though they are like us, they aren't like us.

Just a wonderful thing you could explore if you could reconstruct that..

[BlackCat]

Actually there was something about this subject on the radio a couple of days ago. It seems that they were sexually compatible and that the result is visible today - a bunch of dumb muscular types and a bunch of intelligent but physically weak. The first is the result of these sexual experiments while the latter is pure homo sapiens.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by DaShi
35,000 years and you'd think we'd have solved a lot more problems like war, poverty, and finding a safe answer to "Does this make me look fat?"

No, "this" doesn't make you look fat. It's the 50 pounds of cellulite that makes you look fat.

[Pekka]

hah ok... well, I haven't read about that but.. I guess it would come down to how fast the neanderthals disappeared, if it was too fast, then the mixed breeding would be unlikely. As in, the fossils and stuff we have, did they show any changes from neanderthal to more modern or different than those two species, if they were mix breeding, if not, then clearly that's not what happened in large scale.

I think there is a notion that they just disappeared rather quickly. That in itself does not refer to mixed breeding, but then agian who knows, maybe the scientist do but I don't know that.

[DaShi]

The neanderthals returned to their home planet.

[BlackCat]

Anyway, if you want the true story abou the neanderthals, then read Ben Bova. Some may object to how true it is, but it's a good sequel

[Pekka]

Oh and of course modern human can be traced back a whole lot longer in the past... but then it was mostly like crap art. But still, clearly they were thinking and they were separated from the neanderthal species.

I'm not so much interested in neanderthals.. mostly about the confrontation of two different human species.

[flash9286]

I remember that a program on the Discovery Channel once explained the Neanderthals extinction by saying that the forests in Europe started to recede and giving away to open plains. The Neanderthals' spear and ambush way of hunting didn't work very well on these plains but modern humans could hunt on these plains efficiently.

Edit: found an article about it:

It seems that something much more random could have played a significant role. About 45,000 years ago, the climate of Europe went through a burst of very sudden switches between warm and cold conditions that would have transformed the Neanderthals' environment.

The forests on which they depended began to recede, giving way to open plains. On these plains, Professor Shea believes, the Neanderthal thrusting spear and ambush strategy wouldn't have worked. So Neanderthals retreated with the forests, their population falling as their hunting grounds shrank.

By comparison, modern humans made lighter stone points that could be fitted on to lighter spear shafts. These could be thrown, enabling our ancestors to hunt more effectively in an open landscape. Hunting in an open landscape also required high levels of mobility to follow migrating herds, and the agility to throw the spears themselves. So how did Neanderthal stand up to modern humans' ancestors in agility?

Analysing the inner ear of a Neanderthal, Professor Fred Spoor, from UCL, has discovered clues to Neanderthal's agility. The semi-circular canals of the inner ear provide sense of balance, and by studying a range of animals, he has found a high correlation between the size of the canals and agility. Throughout human evolution, the canals seem to have increased in size as our agility has increased. But Neanderthals have smaller canals than both modern humans and even earlier ancestors. This suggests they were less agile.

Returning to the skeleton, Professor Holliday found an explanation for this - that the short limbs and wide pelvis of Neanderthals would have resulted in less efficient locomotion than modern humans. The energy costs in travelling would have been higher, and this would have been a serious evolutionary disadvantage.

For Neanderthal, it was an ironic end. The very body plan that had made Neanderthal so well adapted to the Ice Age, had locked him into an evolutionary cul-de-sac. He might have been better adapted to the cold than the first modern humans, but as the landscape changed, it was our ancestors, who could take better advantage of the more open environment, who survived.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/neanderthal_prog_summary.shtml

[Pekka]

flash, yeah that's one theory, there's also the theory of modern human bringing in illnesses that wiped them out. Just like westerners wiped out people in south america with flue etc.

But there is no definitive theory that is above them all, in reality we don't know why they got wiped out fast. So it's still pretty much open in the air.

[ískallin]

So since they were sexually compatible would it be possible if enough DNA was recovered to clone one?

That would make an interesting sport, release them somewhere in africa or siberia and go out and shoot them for fun

For a modest fee of course...
Or just build your usual übermench army. Dumb as **** but gorillas, the perfect soldier

[flash9286]

Originally posted by Pekka
flash, yeah that's one theory, there's also the theory of modern human bringing in illnesses that wiped them out. Just like westerners wiped out people in south america with flue etc.

But there is no definitive theory that is above them all, in reality we don't know why they got wiped out fast. So it's still pretty much open in the air.

I wasn't presenting it as the only scenario, just one being thrown about. Also, I don't think this is a consensus on whether the extinction was fast or gradual, but I may be wrong.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by flash9286
I remember that a program on the Discovery Channel once explained the Neanderthals extinction by saying that the forests in Europe started to recede and giving away to open plains. The Neanderthals' spear and ambush way of hunting didn't work very well on these plains but modern humans could hunt on these plains efficiently.

Damn, I wanted to say this. (BTW: Very interesting episode )

[Jon Miller]

wtf pekka?

JM