"Witness the Daily Massacres"

[Adam Smith]

JERUSALEM, Nov. 3 — Israeli troops killed two Palestinian women and wounded some 10 others who were seeking to serve as human shields for Hamas militants holed up in a Gaza mosque on Friday after an overnight standoff. The troops fired on a crowd of women and at least a few men as they marched to the mosque.

Hundreds of women, urged on by Palestinian radio, were flocking to the mosque to try to prevent an Israeli attack and to help an estimated 60 men escape. In the chaos that erupted when the shooting began, the gunmen inside the mosque escaped.

The shooting provoked widespread outrage among Palestinians. ...

Ismail Haniya, the Palestinian prime minister, angrily called for the international community to “come here and witness the daily massacres that are being carried out against the Palestinian nation.” ...

Israeli forces entered the town early Wednesday trying to stop Palestinian rocket fire aimed at southern Israeli towns.

As Israeli forces pursued the militants in the town on Thursday, about 60 gunmen dashed into the Um al-Nasir mosque, setting off a standoff that lasted through the night.

Israeli troops in armored vehicles surrounded the mosque. For several hours, soldiers with loudspeakers called for the militants to surrender, and several did, according to the military. The Israelis also fired tear gas and stun grenades, which make a deafening sound, in an attempt to force out the gunmen. ...

Early Friday morning, a Palestinian radio station called for women to march to the mosque to support the gunmen inside. A short time later, women, dressed in flowing black abayas and head scarves, began marching toward the mosque. The television video showed some girls in the group. ...

One marcher, Suhad el-Masri, 28, said she and several of her relatives had been carrying abayas and scarves to give to the men. “We took them so they could disguise themselves as women and escape,” she said. ...

The Israeli military first said its soldiers had shot at individual gunmen among the women, but several hours later, it said they had fired in response to shots fired from men in the crowd. ...

Source: New York Times

Similar article from the BBC

Is this a case of civilians being used as human shields?
Does this violate the Geneva Convention?
Would civilians be considered combattants in this case?
What are the rules of engagement in this case?

I have not been happy with Israeli policy over the last several years. However, the refusal to recognize Israel, continued firing of rockets into Israeli territory, and explict request for civilians to act in this capacity make it very difficult for me to take Mr. Haniya's request seriously.

[Pekka]

Sounds like they were asking for it.

Still, it's a bad thing. I mean, to shoot shields is not a good thing. However, what are you going to do. These are some pain in the ass dilemmas some have to deal with.

It's nto so much about the 60 dudes IMO. Let them go. Get them tomorrow or so. Get them later. But if you let them go because of the shields, you'll see shields every single day. And then what are you going to do?

Maybe there's a way to controlt he situation using non-lethal force though? Rubber bullets, water cannons? Just knock them all down and out. Get good precise kills if you can, but in general just knock them all down, rubber bullets on shields, real bullets on the protected ones. I don't know if this is feasible or not. Maybe not.

But it's a real dilemma, I don't know who thsi would go in terms of law or common sense.

[Eli]

Maybe there's a way to controlt he situation using non-lethal force though? Rubber bullets, water cannons? Just knock them all down and out. Get good precise kills if you can, but in general just knock them all down, rubber bullets on shields, real bullets on the protected ones. I don't know if this is feasible or not. Maybe not.

Not feasible. This is not a riot in friendly territory, it's a battle in a hostile one.

[aneeshm]

I'm with the Israelites on this one . The shields were just asking for it .

[Provost Harrison]

Asking to be shot? Pathetic. If they were unarmed, surely more conventional police methods could be used to remove them rather than turn their guns against them. Sounds like another attack of the bloodthirsty IDF to me

[Az]

well, this makes sense, of course. Police methods! It's so simple! I guess the whole operation is bloodthirsty too. Couldn't Israel just send the entire towns to bomb shelters indefinetly? and if a nuclear attack is threatened, threatening retaliation is abhorrent as well. The only moral thing to do is to dig shelters for everyone.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Asking to be shot? Pathetic. If they were unarmed, surely more conventional police methods could be used to remove them rather than turn their guns against them. Sounds like another attack of the bloodthirsty IDF to me

Again, this was not a football riot in the streets of Tel Aviv. It is a battle in enemy territory against enemy gunmen, snipers, IEDs and whatnot. Bringing in water cannons is not exactly feasible.

[Whaleboy]

The terrorists need to realise that they can't use human shields, the Israelis (from a tactical point of view) should have made an example of them by killing more of them. This would have scared them away so the army could have completed their objective, and hopefully undermined Hamas.

Israel now needs to convince the Palestinian people that events such as their are akin to Hamas shooting the breeze. It is the terrorists that are putting these people in danger. It is Hamas that is destroying the Palestinian people, this is a perfectly good example of that.

[Eli]

The terrorists need to realise that they can't use human shields, the Israelis (from a tactical point of view) should have made an example of them by killing more of them. This would have scared them away so the army could have completed their objective, and hopefully undermined Hamas.

Who are you and what have you done with Whaleboy?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Asking to be shot? Pathetic. If they were unarmed, surely more conventional police methods could be used to remove them rather than turn their guns against them. Sounds like another attack of the bloodthirsty IDF to me

PH is a tool

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Eli

The terrorists need to realise that they can't use human shields, the Israelis (from a tactical point of view) should have made an example of them by killing more of them. This would have scared them away so the army could have completed their objective, and hopefully undermined Hamas.

Who are you and what have you done with Whaleboy?

Let's keep him!

[SlowwHand]

Re: "Witness the Daily Massacres"

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Is this a case of civilians being used as human shields?
Does this violate the Geneva Convention?
Would civilians be considered combattants in this case?
What are the rules of engagement in this case?

I have not been happy with Israeli policy over the last several years. However, the refusal to recognize Israel, continued firing of rockets into Israeli territory, and explict request for civilians to act in this capacity make it very difficult for me to take Mr. Haniya's request seriously.

A) If unwilling shields, yes it does.
B) You seem so positive they were unwilling.
C) I don't blame Israel for a thing. Arab nations are out to genocide them every day of their lives.

D) Again I'll say, the Arabs to take control of their destiny in regard to militants.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
The terrorists need to realise that they can't use human shields, the Israelis (from a tactical point of view) should have made an example of them by killing more of them. This would have scared them away so the army could have completed their objective, and hopefully undermined Hamas.

Israel now needs to convince the Palestinian people that events such as their are akin to Hamas shooting the breeze. It is the terrorists that are putting these people in danger. It is Hamas that is destroying the Palestinian people, this is a perfectly good example of that.

The sad thing is that loosing fire on the crowd would not have scared them off. Many would have continued advancing despite it.

These people are Hamas. No, they haven't signed their names or gone through the Hamas 101 orientation class, but they are the stock from which Hamas' terrorists are drawn.

But I don't think Israelis, or indeed any genuinely free and modern people, would have the cold steel nerve to mow them down.

[Solly]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


PH is a tool

If he only follows British media his opinions aren't surprising.

[Whaleboy]

The sad thing is that loosing fire on the crowd would not have scared them off. Many would have continued advancing despite it.

If true, then it's not just an emergency in terms of people blowing themselves up. It's a moral and social emergency that people could belittle their lives so much on the grounds of religion .

But I don't think Israelis, or indeed any genuinely free and modern people, would have the cold steel nerve to mow them down.

That's the problem really isn't it? Would I be heartless enough to gun down unarmed civilians? Assuming they'd not be chavs, then I wouldn't want to kill them. In Greek, Roman, Byzantine times, even up to the early stages of the British Empire, the authorities would have no issues about suppressing such a rebellion with the most brutal methods imaginable.

It is our modern sensibilities, not the mention the media, that means that this is not an option today. For better or worse? I'd say for better, for the most part. I'd probably think differently if people I loved had been blown up by a suicide bomber.

It begs the question then? What method with the sufficient ruthlessness to break this problem of all Palestinian society being essentially Hamas' cannon-fodder, and the "niceness" to satisfy postmodernists, could possibly be brought to bear against the Palestinians?

I'd suggest something like a mass deportation of all Palestinian children born after X date to be raised with Israeli families. The day you see Jews doing that is the day you see a Rabbi riding a pig to synagogue munching on a prawn cocktail sandwich.

Turn the Middle East into a glass lake already!