Becoming a French bureaucrat

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I assume given the level of competition that this is somesort of job you can never be fired from. Is that correct?

Yes.

Though that might change for local bureaucrats.

[Provost Harrison]

Congratulations Spiffor, you are one of the few people on this board who can spell bureaucracy correctly Probably something to do with being French

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
On a serious note, just from what you wrote I have lots of issues with the system:

Yes, me too, as you could guess

1. The scoring is not objective - it is based on "judges". This means that sons of buraucrats somehow always manage to pass... am I right? That's one bad thing.

It's not that simple. For once, the written tests are anonymous. If the stuedent sucks, he'll be rejected, unless his parent is really powerful. I've heard tales of children of national politicians entering the grandes écoles despite sucking, but that's about it.
As to the subjectivity of the judges. Yes, they're subjective, but they have some criteria to conform to. And so do the candidates*
Also, to avoid the weight of one's subjectivity being overwhelming, each written copy is corrected by two judges separately, and then they see how they diverged, or not. These judges are half from the administration, half from academia. However, they rarely diverge any significantly, because they have identical criteria and share the same spirit.

2. The tests seem geared towards verbal intelligence. While important, it's only one aspect of intelligence. Usually if you're intelligent in one field you are also in others, but not always.

Yes, overwhelmingly about verbal intelligence. However, as you have to find an interesting and current question that arises from the topic, you are supposed to show your ability to see beyond the obvious, to put in context, and to think about the issue.
And the oral exams also are here to judge your character. If you are completely asocial (and can't hide it), you're likely to fail your oral exam, because you are to lead teams once you're hired.

3. How do they make sure a prospect bureaucrat knows the difference between correlation and causation, can read statistics and calculate basic stuff?

To the first part of the question: they don't. There is very little emphasis in the French curricula about strictly separating correlation and causation. We have almost no scientific method in our "social sciences", but we more often are speculative, with some "empirical" arguments thrown in the mix to be more convincing.
To the second part of the question: one thing we have to do (which I didn't mentioned in my first post, as I didn't know where it'd fit in my plan ), is to summarize and extol the content of a bunch of documents. Among these documents, there can be a graph of table thrown in the mix. This is separate from the dissertation. And that's about it.

There's a specific exam for those who want to become accountants in the administration. The way the administration works, the accountants are the ones for whom it is really essential to know the figures.

4. It is obvious that bureacurats wrote these rules for themselves - to protect their class from infiltration and competition. They have a monopoly - this is very bad.

Ding ding ding.

5. Just how much economics do you need to know? Not much, I'm guessing. Well if you bother to impose all those requirements for buraucrats, at least have them learn economics properly.

We need to know more about economics than the competitor. That's the first thing. And with so many competitors, we need to know quite a bit of economics. Now, we don't need the knowledge of someone who actually spent several years of his life in economic study, but our field of knowledge must encompass the following:
- History of economic thought
- Theories and principles of liberal economy. The more the better.
- basic knowledge of Keynesian economy. Very basic knowledge of Marxist economy.
- Economic policies, especially in France, but also in Europe, and maybe even in the world.
- Some rules of public accountancy, and a good knowledge of the way a public budget works.

6. I am also guessing that women make up less than 10% of the candidates who pass the most difficult exams.

I don't know, so I can't tell. However, they are more than a half of the candidates. Back in my grande école, they were more than half of the students. And in my current classroom (which is more open), they are at least 2/3rds of them. This indeed suggests that more males occur where it becomes more selective, but I don't know the result for the most selective bureaucracy of all, the infamous ENA.


*though many candidate criteria aren't given in the official documentation, because they're not official (there is no official demand of a plan being in two sections).

[VetLegion]

Bureaucracy




BTW., are virtually all French politicians products of Ecoles Bull****iennes or does it happen from time to time that engineers or some other specialty get elected to high positions?

[VetLegion]

Sadly, I think I could pass the exam if it wasn't in French. I have honed my abilities to talk nonsense on teh internets to teh perfection . Hopefully Apolyton expirience pays off for you too

[Dinner]

The American Civil Service exam is more like the SAT and you get an over all score and then subscores in several areas. Which specialization you get into depends on your interests are and what subsections you scored well on.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
BTW., are virtually all French politicians products of Ecoles Bull****iennes or does it happen from time to time that engineers or some other specialty get elected to high positions?

Ecole Bull****ienne

Pretty much all national politicians come from the Ecoles Bull****iennes, in particular the ENA. However, the Ecole Bull****ienne I attended produced almost no national politician

More local politicians (from MPs and lower on), as well as many famous journalists come from the all Ecoles Bull****iennes, which is why the members of this microcosm understand each other so well.

The alumni of the Ecoles Bull****ienne are overrepresented among very local politicians (mayors), but they are a very small segment of the population, so you'll find plenty of mayors who've been doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, civil servants from another background etc. In small villages, you'll even find farmers as mayor.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Sadly, I think I could pass the exam if it wasn't in French. I have honed my abilities to talk nonsense on teh internets to teh perfection . Hopefully Apolyton expirience pays off for you too

I'm sorry to tell you that you dramatically need to hone your skills

For once, I have never seen you write bull**** with the plan. It's very unnatural to write according to a plan when on the internet, especially with a plan as artificial as the one demanded at the exam.

Secondly, your bull**** has to look like it took the opposite argument into account, before dismissing it. Almost nobody doesn it on 'Poly (I certainly don't, and I don't remember seeing you doing it), except LOTM, who is quite good. But I suspect LOTM to be sincere when he takes opposite arguments into account, which is a big no-no

Finally, you rarely show off your knowledge. Now, showing off one's knowledge must be subtle (you should use your trivia at the right moment, or else the judge will see through your attempt at feeling the void with unrelated trivia). But you don't do it on 'Poly, and you need to exercize more.

If you want, I'll give you a topic and 4 hours to write about it. And then I'll give you a mark

[Provost Harrison]

Lucky you, my college alone produced several prime ministers and several other internation politicians. The uni itself? The current PM and the leader of the opposition both went there too...

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I'm sorry to tell you that you dramatically need to hone your skills

OK, I admit, I don't really have the skills you describe. When I argue I try to "win" the argument in as direct line as possible, I abhor redundancy of all kinds.

Still I'd try one of those tests, if they had them here. I'm pretty proud of my ability to express myself in writing. Yeah, I know, who isn't

If you want, I'll give you a topic and 4 hours to write about it. And then I'll give you a mark

Nah, I'd rather surf YouTube

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Actually, not quite. I just wanted a catchy title

I want to work for Commie cities, to work at implementing the policies decided by the Commie city council. Since I have been in the bureaucrat-forming world for some time now (and not many Commies have done so), my skills as a bureaucrat are interesting to them.

When these cities recruit an administrator, they have to recruit them from a pool of bureaucrats that underwent the recruitment process I'm talking about. For high-ranking administrators, they have to recruit from the "catégorie A" pool, in which commies are rare.

I aim at reaching the "catégorie A" pool (though being in the "catégorie B" is acceptable to me as well), so that I can find a job in a commie city. I certainly don't intend to have the spirit of a bureaucrat (I'm fairly sarcastic in my previous post), and I don't think I'll administrate a Commie city my whole life.

Y'all sound like commies already

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Spiffor

That's rich, coming from you

[DAVOUT]

Recruiting young men with enough potential to become highly ranked managers or bureaucrats is not a simple thing ; when there are ten applicants for one slot, it is still seriously more difficult.
These people will have to serve an organization pursuing a clearly define purpose; in the case of a state administration, the purpose is nothing less than the common weal. When you are sure that the selection process will reach this purpose (result satisfactory in itself), then, and only then, you can decide that secondary objectives such as equality of treatment between the applicants, equality of chance, and all sorts of social considerations, should be pursued when possible.
The anonymity has clearly been decided in view of establishing equality in the exam process, but the content of the exam has clearly been made to select the candidates showing an excellent mastering of certain specific qualities. In this respect, it is not surprising that people with a limited knowledge of the language compulsorily used in the exam, or with a cultural background non existent or different from the one demanded, have no chance to succeed in the game; of course, this is not caused by the exam, and must be taken care by other means. An interesting question about the “specific qualities” is : are they required by the common weal or are they only needed as a selective tool?
Regarding people who show excellence in competences not required in the game, and lacking of the competences required, for instances poets hating the two parts dissertation, I don’t see why they would apply.

[Cort Haus]

fall

Why can't you say autumn?

[Drogue]

While that's a very different proceedure from the Civil Service in the UK, the results seem largely the same - an institution run by people who studied some form of social science at Oxbridge, with a few LSE, UCL, Warwick, Durham, etc. people thrown in. Ie. people who know how to bull****. Having said that, we do have a whole load of specialist entrance routes - the economic service, statistic service, diplomatic service and secret service all have their own admissions.

Also, those of us lucky enough to have had successful internships get to bypass the whole thing