Something trully chilling to free speech

[Arrian]

Sure, but I guess I'd need some examples of what you're confused about. Feel free to send me a PM and I'll do my best to help. English is a well-known pain in the ass.

In this particular instance, it's:

What crap!
-or-
That is crap!
-or-
What a pile of crap!

Back to my question... the guy used to be Putin's right-hand man, right? You think he's a liar, and thus believe what he says in that article to be bs. Ok, why? Do you think that he's holding a grudge against Putin for something?

-Arrian

[Serb]

Originally posted by Arrian
Back to my question... the guy used to be Putin's right-hand man, right?

Not exactly, at least I don't think so. I think it was a part of the deal for Putin to let some key figures close to Eltsin's "family" stay in power (I mean Kasyanov and Voloshin - the head of Eltsin's administration. I think Putin promised to don't touch them for a certain period of time. When that period expired, these two and other Eltsin's lackeys were fired. So, Kasyanov was NEVER a right-hand man od Putin. More true he was a (I'm not sure about right, but at least a some kind of) hand of Eltsin's family (or the criminal gang of motherf*ckers that pillaged Russia for a decade. In fact, Kasyanov was in opposition to Putin while he was a PM, but while he kept his chair, there was no reason for him to openly attack Putin. But since he found his pitty arse fired, he started to play another game.

You think he's a liar, and thus believe what he says in that article to be bs.

He IS a liar, simply because he lies "at will" at this exact article.

Ok, why? Do you think that he's holding a grudge against Putin for something?

Why?
Ok, the article is too large and I don't want to waste my time to comment that pile of crap line after line.
I'll comment only an introduction/summary of this article:

"Petrodollar sovereignty, a course toward shrinking economic and political freedoms,

Like he had a better course when he was a PM
(Actually, I think he had, since he did his best to finish off Russia. The Russia of Fradkov and the Russia of Kasyanov are two different Russias.).

has already led to Russia's loss of leadership in post-Soviet territory and it will define its place among the countries of the Third World for a long time to come.

This is where Kasyanov was heading Russia. Russia's influence worldiwide decreased since he left the office and soon Russia will be a powerless third world state? IN HIS DREAMS. The guy is taking hallucinogenes, no doubt. Only a complete moron or liar can believe that Russia, when Kasyanov was a PM, was more powerfull and prosperious.

It may also lead the country to revolution, according to leader of the People's Democratic Union Mikhail Kasyanov.

Yeah, no sh!t
(in his dreams, perhaps)

Regaining of political influence and rapid postindustrial development is possible only if the country is turned into an Empire of Freedom, the former prime minister says in this article written specially for Kommersant. "

He is a f*cking imperialst, don't you see?

The rest of the article is just a blah-blah-blah. The summary pretty fine describes that pile of crap.
The guy is a clown. His approval rating in Russia, well, surprise, surprise, equals to ZERO.
Basically, he is nothing, a clown who wants to make a some noise.
But, my point was: since were are a democracy, even such clowns can whine for all their care. And that article proves that just fine. The foremer PM openly criticizes the President at pages of one of the best known Russian paper (actually Kommersant is much more than just a papper). He does so with BS arguments, but who cares?. He has a right to express his BS views (NO BLOODY PUTIN EDITING HIS SPEECH).

[Eli]

Russia is going to become a third worl... HAIL PUTIN! Putin the Saviour will turn Mother Russia to a world power! Our ships are not rusting! Our life expectancy is not lower than in Vietnam! These are all Western lies, spread by the CIA and Khodorkovsky! HAIL PUTIN!

Last edited by Putin on 14-10-2006 at 05:06

[Eli]

Oh no! He's trying to shut me up! They have taken over Apoly... HAIL LORD GOD PUTIN! A scourge against crime, a father to us all, the pride of Russia!

Last edited by Putin on 14-10-2006 at 05:25

[Pekka]

I don't think.. is there actually any show that Putin had anything to do with this? I'm as skeptical as the freaks next to me, however, there are so many interests and groups in Russia that this obvious finger pointing is not finished.

Basically, there are so many others with interests of shutting this journalist up, not just the president. Frankly I don't believe the president had much to do with this. Because it would be stupid, and Putin is not stupid, he's smart, a lot smarter than most leaders.. well measured in pure intelligence that is.

I don't think he would have seen that as feasible strategy to shut the critics down. He would have known that the consequences of that would not go away, this journalist was simply too known internationally, and he would have known that she would get support and messages from the very elite of just about everywhere.

That's why I don't believe he would have even used contractors to be out of the picture if evidence showed up. Basically I think, from purely strategical point of view, that the president is innocent.. at least until evidence shows up.

It just doesn't make any sense for a smart man to order that.

Facts we know are that this was a professional hit, so we can pretty much get the lone gunman theory out of the way right from the beginning.

He got himself on videotape, multiple shots close range adn gun left in the place, these are all pointing out to criminal groups. It can be someone from the army as well, but I don't see how this would make any sense for the president to take this kind of action right now.

I think this is an action from some criminal entity. We'll just have to wait and see.

Also had Putin wanted to do this, I think he would have gone with the old assasination ways, discreet and make it look like an accident, poisoning, car crash, heart attack, kidnapping in checnhya, what ever.. there would have been so many other ways to do it and not draw so much attention. She could have disappeared in battle field, and that's just the way to go with it if you have resources and interest to do that. Not like this.. this was a clear professional hit but the way criminals do it IMO.

Or what about even more viable tactics, like discrediting her for her work, playing it down, tarnishing her reputation etc.. those would have been far better. And I think a man with such high intelligence would agree and would have not agreed taking such attention draw.

[RGBVideo]

The problem we encounter here is that most of people in Western Europe and in North America still haven't realized that the cold war is over. Thus, we get bias and prejudice. Thus, 'everybody knows' that negative developement in Russia is a government conspiracy initiated by 'Putin and his KGB friends'. Western heads of state have missed many golden opportunities because of their lack of good faith towards Russia during the last 5 years.

[Pekka]

To certain extent I agree. As in, when the **** hits the fan, Russia can be a trusted partner. Russia will not go against Western interests in the big picture. They have so much shared interest. And most of all, they are not stupid, in fact, I think they are strategically way more intelligent than most Western counterparts. Let's face it, we can't get a good read on them, except of course the experts and analysts can but we don't listen to them anyway.

Russia works just like any other country. If we want something, we must offer something in return. Now, we have things that Putin wants. He wants it badly. But we shut them down, as if we are stupid negotatiors. We must have lots of thigns we want in return, so why don't we ask those? I think in this regard, for example our (finnish) leadership is far more qualified when it comes to Russia. We know when it's the wrong time to try and get a read. We know when to read, but we have little to offer back and the very current leadership is piss poor at taking advantage on that, instead they like the whole roll over and be scared kind of things.

They don't understand that it's not 'yes sir' time. It's 'ok, and what do we get in return'. That's how you get respected in Putin's neighbourhood, and it shows that you're not a pushover, you don't bend into demands, but you're always interested in negotiating things. That's how you should play with Russia. Because we have same interests.

So for example, if you want this Chechnya thing to end, you must use backdoor channels and not the media. Putin is not going to lose face. So you don't do it in the papers. That would be just going backwards. You would start negotiating about retreat, give them something in return and promise for cooperation if something should happen. As in, no one needs to retreat and get it up the ass. Saving face is the key. Retreat and make it look like you not only won, but gained new deals. You don't make demands. If you want something, you negotiate and treat it like business.

Or for example now, there's just no evidence pointing out that the leadership had anything to do with this. It would be just stupid. It's all about face at this point. THe way they deal with issues is behind the doors, you don't do a public execution to send a message to others. That's not how it works in there. The people will get the message if it's an accident.

So.. basically.. I'm not in the same bandwagon where Mother Russia is the victim of everoyne, but this case seems to be trivialized into death and we are kidding ourselves here.

VJ, did you see the documentary last night where the IKEA guy, Ingvar something went to deal with Russian business of his? That's hwo you do it. That's how you deal. He didn't demand ****. He pointed out what he wants, went to people who can help and who have that kind of power, treated them with respect and pointed out what he has done in terms of investments and what he wants and offers in return. And BOOM, the mayor of Moscow agreed to give everything in his power to stop anyone from demanding bribes when it comes to IKEA. That's how you do it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Now IF the US, under a strong charismatic leader were making changes going in the other direction - then yes, that would be a sign of concern.

You mean like getting the authority to spy on Americans without a warrant and designate some a terrorist and grab them and torture them and never have to put them up for trial?

Not that this should take awayfrom the dictatorship that is Russia. Our government is worrisome. Russia's is frightening.

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by Pekka
I think in this regard, for example our (finnish) leadership is far more qualified when it comes to Russia.

The current Finnish leadership? I disagree with you.

VJ, did you see the documentary last night where the IKEA guy, Ingvar something went to deal with Russian business of his? That's hwo you do it. That's how you deal. He didn't demand ****. He pointed out what he wants, went to people who can help and who have that kind of power, treated them with respect and pointed out what he has done in terms of investments and what he wants and offers in return. And BOOM, the mayor of Moscow agreed to give everything in his power to stop anyone from demanding bribes when it comes to IKEA. That's how you do it.

I don't have a TV. Without knowing anything about the mayor of Moscow, I say that it's foolish to think that mayor can personally stop low-level corruption like invididual police officers excepting bribes.

[Pekka]

VJ, No I said the CURRENT leadership is piss poor in this regard. I meant in general. I should have said experts and analysts.. and few politicians. In no way did I want ot say the current admin. They prefer the roll over strategy, which won't give them any credibility in there.

I think it wasn't about low-level bribes. Who can stop that? I guess no one. But at least that organized gangs are seeing some troubles.