Iraq actions makes terrorism risks worse ?

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Straybow
WMD programs, not systems. It is primarily a matter of knowledge. The point is all such material was to have been destroyed under supervision. It was not.

Some may have been taken across the border. Some may have been hidden and now lost. Some may have been destroyed, just so weak-minded people would conclude that it was all a "set-up."

Tell Saddam, "You're welcome."

Design specs are no more WMDs than a footprint is a boot. You could probably find half of them on the Internet.

And with the regime threatened and crumbling, the Iraqis performed a magnificient, flawless cover-up of these terrible, terrible bits of paper, so that whilst Saddam was dead/captured, it would make the pro-war people look bad. Well done Saddam!

[Elok]

How exactly would we have known that all copies of said data were destroyed in the first place, even assuming their possession counted as "having WMD?" Were there no thumb drives, modems, faxes, or CD burners in all of Iraq? I realize a nuclear weapon is a complicated thing, but would the plans for one take more than half an hour to copy?

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by Straybow
There are two (2) parts to the WMD issue. This makes it a very complex issue that so many people have difficulty grasping. Two parts, not one, not one and a half.

1. Iraq was not permitted any WMD materials (whether physical or data).
2. Iraq was to surrender all existing WMD materials (physical and data), which were then to be destroyed under UN supervision.

Are you with me so far? Can Hans Blix tell you how much WMD materials were handed over and destroyed under supervision? Yes, he can. Nothing. Not one file or report, not one piece of hardware. Zero. Zilch. Nada. I'd say it in Finnish to make sure you get it, but I don't know how.

Now Hans Blix knows that neither he nor any member of his inspection teams ever set foot in any of almost 100 "Presidential Palaces," many of which were little more than hardened safe houses and bomb shelter complexes. Can Hansie tell you how much WMD materials were hidden in those sites? No.

Hansie also knows that everywhere the inspection teams went they found evidence of filing cabinets, workstations, lab equipment, etc that had been removed before the inspectors' arrival. But somehow, he knows there were no WMD materials among the things he didn't see.

Blix is a buffoon if he truly thinks the UN inspection mission was "successful." He conflates his own personal feelings about the war with his own personal feelings about the job he was assigned and carried out to the best of his abilities and resources. He refuses to admit that inspection was a losing game from the start because from the start it completely lacked component #2 listed above.

There's just one problem: Blix and I were correct. There weren't any WMD. You're still parroting talking points which were proven as lies in 2003 when nothing was found, trying to hide your insecurity with insults, cute nicknames and arrogance.

It's surreal really, seeing a person starting to rant how nobody can know whether there are or aren't any cease-fire violating weapons within palaces conquered and revealed by US forces several years ago. Ask Oerdin whether he saw any "WMD materiel" when he spent time in the "bomb shelter complex" aka "Presidential palace" he resided in.

It's sad when you encounter an old man who refuses to accept reality, sticking to lies he has once faithfully memorized, no matter what happens. I hope you get better soon.

[Straybow]

How exactly would we have known that all copies of said data were destroyed in the first place, even assuming their possession counted as "having WMD?" Were there no thumb drives, modems, faxes, or CD burners in all of Iraq? I realize a nuclear weapon is a complicated thing, but would the plans for one take more than half an hour to copy?

It isn't the plans for the bomb, but the plans for the plant to produce the weapons-grade material, the plans for the plant to fabricate the warheads from the fissionables, etc.

If you want to build a nuke in your own back yard and detonate it for testing it is a simple thing. Making one that can be carried in a missile, an aerial bomb, an artillery shell, etc is not so simple. Making one stable enough to sit unused for long periods of time is not so simple. Training people to handle them, maintain them, etc.

This is why it is called a WMD program. A weapon does not exist in an infrastructural vacuum.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Sandman
And with the regime threatened and crumbling, the Iraqis performed a magnificient, flawless cover-up of these terrible, terrible bits of paper, so that whilst Saddam was dead/captured, it would make the pro-war people look bad. Well done Saddam!

The regime wasn't "crumbling" until the tanks rolled in. Until then Saddam's secret police had years to hide vital parts. They had plenty of notice to destroy anything Saddam didn't want to be caught with. Despite his bluster, Saddam definitely didn't want to be caught with solid evidence of his misdeeds.

The whole WMD face-off was a game of chicken. The UN flinched and Saddam won round one, then the US didn't flinch and Saddam lost round two.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by VJ
There's just one problem: Blix and I were correct. There weren't any WMD. You're still parroting talking points which were proven as lies in 2003 when nothing was found, trying to hide your insecurity with insults, cute nicknames and arrogance.

I have already conceded that there weren't any proper WMDs. I mock both you and Blix, who make assurances based on what Blix didn't see but you both feel sure about because neither can admit to mission failure.

But that there were WMD programs I'll defend. We know who headed Saddam's WMD programs. Saddam didn't pay them to sit around drinking tea. There were scores of scientists and engineers employed, and they weren't building model airplanes. Most have disappeared. Saddam did send representatives to Niger, though they failed to make contacts that could provide any yellowcake. They weren't there for vacation, they were part of a WMD program.

Again, there are two (2) points: that such programs were prohibited and that such materials had to be handed over and destroyed under supervision.

It does not matter that eventually material was lost or destroyed. The material did exist, and Blix saw evidence that it was being concealed from inspection at every turn, and it was not handed over and destroyed under supervision. There is no guarantee that it was all lost or destroyed, because there is no accounting for it.
__________
PS: Oerdin spent time in an actual Presidential residence, not one of the scores of declared "palaces."

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Straybow
The regime wasn't "crumbling" until the tanks rolled in. Until then Saddam's secret police had years to hide vital parts. They had plenty of notice to destroy anything Saddam didn't want to be caught with. Despite his bluster, Saddam definitely didn't want to be caught with solid evidence of his misdeeds.

So we had to invade Iraq to stop Saddam destroying his own WMD-related documents? Well, that makes sense.

[Dinner]

Of course it makes it worse. There is no question.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Sandman
So we had to invade Iraq to stop Saddam destroying his own WMD-related documents? Well, that makes sense.

Again, way to misread what I said. Dislexic, perhaps?

Let's see, Saddam already had Blix buffaloed, and money coming in for unauthorized purchases and projects through the corrupt food-for-oil program. Stonewall the UN for another year and he'd be free to go back to gassing Kurds. I suppose you'd prefer it that way.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Straybow
Again, way to misread what I said. Dislexic, perhaps?

Let's see, Saddam already had Blix buffaloed, and money coming in for unauthorized purchases and projects through the corrupt food-for-oil program. Stonewall the UN for another year and he'd be free to go back to gassing Kurds. I suppose you'd prefer it that way.

So now he wasn't getting his implausibly skillful and dedicated 20,000 man secret police to destroy/hide all the deadly documents? You can hardly do that whilst being a year away from employing poison gas against the Kurds.

You veer between fantasies with such dizzying speed that it's hard to keep up.

[Straybow]

Ah, the perfection of hindsight. What we knew and what he was doing were two separate things.

We thought we were stopping him from continuing development of WMDs. Saddam was bluffing, which turned out to be not such a smart move for him. Between hiding whatever he wanted to keep and destroying whatever he didn't want to be caught with, we came up empty.

[RGBVideo]

Ah, the perfection of hindsight. What we knew and what he was doing were two separate things.

Speak for yourself.

We thought we were stopping him from continuing development of WMDs. Saddam was bluffing, which turned out to be not such a smart move for him. Between hiding whatever he wanted to keep and destroying whatever he didn't want to be caught with, we came up empty.

Yes, Saddam clearly implied that he had WMD and wanted more by letting the weapons inspectors in and letting them to do everything they wanted according to Hans Blix (why did Saddam do so? Because he's a moron, d'uh!). The fact that Bush invaded after official investigations proved that there were no WMD just goes off to show that hindsight is 20/20.

You are still believing everything what Bush and his administration told to you pre-invasion. You are pretty ****ing stupid in doing so. And that's all I have to say about this anymore. I am banging my head towards a wall by continuing this counter-productive discussion, so do carry on -- on your own. Cheerybye, and I hope you do get better soon.

[Straybow]

Ah, so you have a crystal ball, too. Why aren't you using it to find Bin Laden? You know there is a $25M reward for information leading to his capture.

Sorry you are so misinformed. Even Blix doesn't say that Saddam "let them in" and "let them do everything the wanted." The evidence, from live news on a nearly daily basis, showed Saddam's security teams holding up inspection convoys for hours with truckloads of unidentified cargos leaving the designated sites for destinations unknown.

Blix only claims that he is personally satisfied that he was able to competently inspect the facilities and targets and that he is "convinced" that there was nothing there. Blix is entitled to his own little delusions of adequacy.

[Chemical Ollie]

Blix 15 teh rule

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Sandman
So now he wasn't getting his implausibly skillful and dedicated 20,000 man secret police to destroy/hide all the deadly documents? You can hardly do that whilst being a year away from employing poison gas against the Kurds.

You veer between fantasies with such dizzying speed that it's hard to keep up.

I'm sorry that you can't keep up. I'll explain what I meant. Saddam was about a year away from Blix declaring the inspection complete. With inspectors gone and embargos lifted Saddam could then dig up the hidden records and such and get back to his WMD programs with the intent of, say, gassing Kurds (to list a historical example of his predelictions).

I wouldn't hazard a guess how long it would take to build gas shells, but from what everybody here is saying he had dual-use chemicals that were "inspected" and left behind to be put to one of those two uses.

Whatever the case, Saddam would've been free in short time to pursue whatever WMDs his heart desired. Then we'd have one more saber-rattler talking about joining the nuclear club (to keep up parity with Iran, of course).