President Bush's Crusade Against Justice Continues..

[SlowwHand]

I do with people that get sarcasm.

Follow along. More outrage expressed over anything the USA does over anything terrorists do. You don't hear a damn word over terrorist bombings, executions or anything else. It's just common, oh well, another day in the life of terrorists.

But you have a picture of a suspected terrorist on a leash, and all Hell breaks loose.

[germanos]

Originally posted by SlowwHand

Follow along. More outrage expressed over anything the USA does over anything terrorists do. You don't hear a damn word over terrorist bombings, executions or anything else. It's just common, oh well, another day in the life of terrorists.

[Dr Strangelove]

You know, if these guys are lawful combatants we can still hold them, 'cause after all the Taliban hasn't surrendered yet.

[SlowwHand]

uh yep.

[Pekka]

This might be so. I think this was about torture though and if it should be legal

[Vesayen]

Is it too late to toss in my 2 cents?

Screw the legality.

Torturing anyone, for any coneviable reason is EVIL.

It is WRONG.

It is wrong in the same way rape is wrong.

I'll toss 2 cents of morality into this. Torture is inherantly evil, screw all legal considerations(even though our treaty obligations make it a crime).

[SlowwHand]

Terrorists should just go to Mexico. Broke no laws there, and if anyone from U.S. comes down to get them, they get a warrant issued and Hawaii will give them up somehow. Terrorists walk away free.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Sorry guys...I can't make that trip with you.

If it's okay to torture someone in an attempt to save a million lives, then is it okay to do it to save a hundred thousand?

10,000?

100?

2?

Where's the line? Do you want to be responsible for drawing that line?

It's never okay, and there are always options that do not include torturing the person you're trying to get information out of.

These options do typically require a little thinking outside the box, and a lot more planning, but that's a scant downside, really (tho admittedly, not something the folks wearing the brass knuckles are likely to consider, cos it's not their forte).

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Those options also tend to make relatively poor TV, which is why Jack Bauer options invariably win out on both the big and small screens....

Hey Vel,

Gots a question here. In previous topics specifically those dealing with capital punishment you raised issues of the greater good being served by killing the monsters that commit heinous crimes worthy of capital punishment.

How does this square with the above? Wherein torture potentially to the point of death serves the greater good? I'll grant in the last (murderers) case due process has been served and the criminal found guilty but the rational for the sentence remains the same. Namely the greater good is being served at the expense of an individuals (or monsters if you prefer you say PeeWee is a monster I say Mohhamad Atta is a monster) life and liverty.

[Velociryx]

Good question, Og!

I would say two things, specifically:

The first point is somewhat tangential to the main, but important in its way. As you mentioned, due process has been served. This isn't a case of some kangaroo court where evidence is withheld from the accused in a "trust us, you're guilty" type situation. On the contrary, the serial killers we were talking about in the other thread have had their day in court, and were found guilty.

Second, and more prominently in my mind, I'd argue that a lifetime of solitary confinement (which was fronted as the kinder, gentler alternative of choice for prisoners so convicted, is far more torturous than a quick clean death.

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Good question, Og!

I would say two things, specifically:

The first point is somewhat tangential to the main, but important in its way. As you mentioned, due process has been served. This isn't a case of some kangaroo court where evidence is withheld from the accused in a "trust us, you're guilty" type situation. On the contrary, the serial killers we were talking about in the other thread have had their day in court, and were found guilty.

Second, and more prominently in my mind, I'd argue that a lifetime of solitary confinement (which was fronted as the kinder, gentler alternative of choice for prisoners so convicted, is far more torturous than a quick clean death.

-=Vel=-

We're on the same page so far with respect to due process being served. It is an important distinction and one that needs to be understood in the civilian world as well as the world of war. I'll not get into the oft repeated arguements that enemies not in uniform are not necessarily granted Geneva Convention protections. The admin is looking for congress to give guidance to update UCMJ guidelines and give more specificity to what amounts to and does not amount to torture and likewise what military hearings are required to effect the prisoners disposition. To that end I think those good things even if done extremely late in the game. Likewise I don't necessarily fault a side from taking a hard line or soft line on the matter as I presume that is the nature of negotiation in these matters.

All that being said the second part of your post leaves me a bit still puzzled. The point of any prisoner treatment and disposition is not so much what is most humane or inhumane but what greater good can be achieved to society at large. I hear the arguements that ill treatment makes us monsters and that in of itself is a damage to society. (the slippery slope arguement) But that same arguement is likewise ignored when our Euroweenie anti DP cousins (kisses Euro polytubbies) pontificate on the barbarism of the DP.

[Elok]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Terrorists should just go to Mexico. Broke no laws there, and if anyone from U.S. comes down to get them, they get a warrant issued and Hawaii will give them up somehow. Terrorists walk away free.

I think I'm going to create the Golden Gonad award for people who drag their outraged feelings from one thread into completely unrelated ones under a half-arsed finish of relevance.

[SlowwHand]

oooh. Bad vibes.

[Straybow]

tldr

[GePap]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
But we CAN lop off heads; and we can pose as civilians and blow up civilians. As long as we don't put a leash around their neck and make them bark like a dog, we're ok.

Actually no, those are war crimes.

Those people responsible for war crimes can be prosected.

I don't know what that has to do with torture.