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  • Originally posted by Ramo
    No, it's not. They do qualify for protections, but not the same protections as US citizens.
    I thought US laws and treaties defined the rights of foreign nationals and enemy combatants not the Constitution. Although I think they should receive similar rights to US citizens, I don't see how they could bring a constitutional challenge if the laws and treaties in effect at the time didn't extend certain rights to them. If US forces operating in Afghanistan raided a house suspected of containing Taliban forces without a warrant, I don't think any captured Taliban combatants could use the fourth amendment to secure a release on grounds of unreasonable searches and seizures.

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    • Originally posted by korn469


      I thought US laws and treaties defined the rights of foreign nationals and enemy combatants not the Constitution
      The 1st through 10th and the 14th Amendments apply to "all persons", not just citizens (though they have been held to apply in a different manner to non-citizens than to citizens).
      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
      Stadtluft Macht Frei
      Killing it is the new killing it
      Ultima Ratio Regum

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      • A question: if some people will say anything to stop the torture, why wouldn't they speak the truth?

        I have no doubt some will lie just to screw the torturer, and some will say falsehoods out of a desire to stop the pain, but some will tell the truth to stop the pain.

        I don't know why you think the torturee will either resist or just lie to stop the torture. You act like there's no middle ground.

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        • Originally posted by SlowwHand
          It's a fallacy that pain will end. I suppose if they kill you quickly afterwards it ends.


          You seem to be under the insane delusion that people are rational when tortured. If you can resist, you do. If you can't, you break.

          Animal nature takes over, and you say anything you think your torturers want to hear to try and make it stop. It might be the truth, it might be a lie, but it what you think they want to hear. Far from trying to f*ck with the torturer, they are trying to please him instead.
          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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          • Originally posted by Velociryx
            Nuke, yes...I got that....but if it's one guy, then we're prolly talking about a suitcase bomb. A dirty nuke...MAYBE with a blast radius of a couple blocks.

            Even with high winds to scatter the radiation, it would, at worst, impact five or six blocks, and that's the nightmare scenario. 7-16 mil is off the charts for the type of operation that one guy could pull off...that's all I'm saying.

            And I think that if properly prodded, said terrorist would be a bit less certain about the 70 virgins awaiting him...again, no terror mind you...just...a little heart to heart conversation as the ticker wound its way to zero.



            -=Vel=-
            The contamination from the Russian rector reach the states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho killing 36 people.

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            • Originally posted by The diplomat


              The Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists because they are not uniformed combatants of a sovereign nation. Wht can't people get that straight?
              I didn't say anything about terrorists, where did you get that from?

              Still, undermining the GC is stupid, and will put your own troops even more at risk - think reciprocity. If the US doesn't think it's bound by the GC, chances are that other states will do the same, incl. your enemies. That's exactly what parts of the US military are concerned about.
              Blah

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              • And if you could point out an alternative, just like Vel the Mouth, you might have a leg to stand on, but you don't.

                Just more complaints, just like Vel. Don't do that. A complaint without an alternative is one of the most annoying things I can think of, and you're better than that.


                The alternatives to torture are well known, and need no real explanation. Further, I have stated my position as being one against the secret torture prisons and laws written to make our sitting president's actions legal, retroactively. Thus, my "alternative" would be to simply head off in the opposite direction. To hold ourselves to a higher standard of conduct, and to hold those who break with that position accountable for thier deeds. I think that has been made clear, but I take it by Sloww's statements about my earlier comments that he a) disagrees that the opposite course of action is an alternative, and/or b) that he stands in support of the sitting president's attempts.

                To this: The contamination from the Russian rector reach the states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho killing 36 people.

                I would simply say my understanding is that a malfunctioning nuclear reactor is several orders of magnitude greater than a suitcase bomb, and as such, I have doubts that the two are comparable, but admittedly, I am no expert on the subject.

                To the law itself...I'm glad it's dead, and the countdown continues until the day this buffoon is out of office...WOOT!

                -=Vel=-
                The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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                • Originally posted by Velociryx
                  a malfunctioning nuclear reactor is several orders of magnitude greater than a suitcase bomb
                  Admittedly, I'm veering off topic here, but it's not.
                  THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
                  AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
                  AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
                  DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

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                  • Velociryx, you still just mouth complaints, and like I said, complaints only aren't worth spit. You do good at twisting other's words, but that's about it.
                    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                    • Shiva, then I stand corrected! Every article I've ever seen on the subject indicates that this is not the case, but I've not delved more deeply than a few magazine and newspaper pieces on the topic.

                      Sloww, what did I twist? You asked for an alternative...I gave one...180 degrees away from the course currently charted by the president.

                      What part of that was ambiguous?

                      -=Vel=-
                      The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                      Comment


                      • The principle idea of the whole geneva convention and why most are glad to sign it is because it protects your own soldiers.

                        That is to say, if a US soldier would be captured anywhere in the world and systematically tortured, this action accepted by everyone in the system and signed for, it is legal and OK.

                        So that's why the principle is of self defense nature. It means that since we don't do it, there is no way you have any reason or moral to do it either. If you decide to torture anyway, it is the enemy who is then the torturing bastard and deserves bad things.

                        That's the principle. And yes, it's simple. And yes, it works.

                        Not in every occasion, but that's life.
                        In da butt.
                        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                        • But we CAN lop off heads; and we can pose as civilians and blow up civilians. As long as we don't put a leash around their neck and make them bark like a dog, we're ok.
                          Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                          "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                          He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                          Comment


                          • It doesn't work when the enemy is not a state, not a signatory to the Geneva convention, doesn't fight in uniform, etc.
                            THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
                            AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
                            AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
                            DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

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                            • Yeah, but if a state makes it legal, every other state can make it legal too, and who is to say they won't use it in cases where it 'wasn't necessary'.

                              Have we not concluded that intel info from tortured prisoners is the worst intel on earth? They will say anything.

                              So this would also apply to US citizens, if you have domestic bombers, they can be tortured, or at least with the logic of safety this must apply.

                              And then you have to ask yourself, do you feel safer if you are captured in enemy territory when you have a signed deal of not torturing people, or when it is very known that there are deals that it is legal? I woudl consider my chances of not getting tortured pretty slim at that point. That's the whole protective idea behind it. Some will get tortured, that's the way it is, but if it's legal and accepted, there will be a whole bunch more people tortured, including normal captives.

                              And what's this big deal about fighting in uniform anyway, making someone an illegal combatant. There must be better ways to define an illegal combatant, since there's tons of ways, besides who defines what is a uniform? Special operators, special forces now have to move in enemy territory with red flags so everyone can see them and make a fair fight? I don't think so. There must be other ways to define illegal combatant than that.
                              In da butt.
                              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                              Comment


                              • "But we CAN lop off heads; and we can pose as civilians and blow up civilians. As long as we don't put a leash around their neck and make them bark like a dog, we're ok."

                                Who said you can do that? You can't do that. Or if you do, you'd be a terrorist. That's one of the things that does separate us from the terrorists.
                                In da butt.
                                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                                Comment

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