History Questions and Random Thoughts

[Verto]

I'm taking a History of Civilizations (to 1650) course, so I figured I would post questions I had, such as if I find something my prof. said puzzling or possibly incorrect, or if I find something interesting and want to share for discussion.

For example, she (my prof) said the ancient Greeks had no numbers above 10,000. So, for example, when recounting a battle, the Greeks would simply say they fought with an army "greater than 10,000".

She also said that the Egyptians became especially skilled with glass, and could form blue-colored glass so thin as to be worn like a contact lens (albeit not to correct vision, simply for looks).


Discuss.

[Ecthy]

Not interesting.

Except maybe the 10,000 bit. Ever heard of the battle of Plataiai? Ancient sources claim there were several thousand Greeks fighting and beating millions of Persian soldiers. One history professor of mine (in Germany though he's Spanish) said that he's been to the Plataiai plain before and never could so many men even have been on there, let alone breathe, move and fight. In the end it was probably an advance group of Persians being overrun by some hoplite phalanx and that's it.

[molly bloom]

Re: History Questions and Random Thoughts

Originally posted by Verto
I'm taking a History of Civilizations (to 1650) course, so I figured I would post questions I had, such as if I find something my prof. said puzzling or possibly incorrect, or if I find something interesting and want to share for discussion.

For example, she (my prof) said the ancient Greeks had no numbers above 10,000. So, for example, when recounting a battle, the Greeks would simply say they fought with an army "greater than 10,000".

She also said that the Egyptians became especially skilled with glass, and could form blue-colored glass so thin as to be worn like a contact lens (albeit not to correct vision, simply for looks).


Discuss.

There is a site which deals with the history of science and major figures in the development of science and inventors:

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Greek_numbers.html

What your professor may have meant is that when it came to calculating the numbers taking part in a battle ancient historians (non-mathematicians) may have simply fallen back on 10 000 as the largest commonly used number (equivalent to say 'the Golden Horde' or 'a great host', in more poetical, less literal accounts).

The Ancient Greeks do seem to have had numbers over 10 000 though:

In fact numbers as large as 71755875 would be unlikely to arise very often. On the other hand mathematicians did see the need to extend the number system and we now look at two such proposals, first one by Apollonius and then briefly one by Archimedes (although in fact historically Archimedes made his proposal nearly 50 years before Apollonius).

As for the glass making, Egypt certainly produced glass vessels in the reign of Thutmose I, possiby because he extended Egypt's territory further into the Middle East, and may have acquired glassmakers from the region of Syria/Babylonia.

The Romans were definitely exporting high quality Syrian and Egyptian manufactured glassware to China, and again under the Fatimids, Egypt exported glass and under their successors, the Ayyubids, alum for making glass to Venice and elsewhere. Venice of course is now famous for its art glass and glass vessels from Murano.


Ancient Egyptian glass:

It has been suggested that the use of cobalt alum as a colourant in Egyptian glass ended around the 11th century BC, and it has been assumed that the Egyptian cobalt alum sources were unique, hence an important indicator of early glass making in Egypt itself. Clearly, one or more of our previous assumptions are in need of revision.

http://www.historyofglass.org.uk/AIHV2003/Developments.htm

Ptolemaic Egyptian glassware:

[Blaupanzer]

Re: History Questions and Random Thoughts

Originally posted by Verto

For example, she (my prof) said the ancient Greeks had no numbers above 10,000. So, for example, when recounting a battle, the Greeks would simply say they fought with an army "greater than 10,000".


Discuss.

Despite Molly's input as to "proposals" for greater numbers, it does appear that the Greeks did not have symbols for numbers above 10,000. In those times, the local economies would be very hard pressed to support large numbers of troops for any extended purpose, so the "limit" wouldn't be very limiting. As to references to Persian "millions," that is probably poetic license. Something like "10,000 times 10,000" sounds good in song or poem, but was not meant to be taken literally. The Israelites were good at this sort of thing too. Their enemy "hosts" are greater than the total population of the Middle East at that time. However, I'm told that these numbers fit the poetic tempo in the original Hebrew. Suspect the same pattern for the Greeks.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, it makes the mother country sound better that they beat down such large armies that numbered 100,000 with a few slingshot shooters and a shephard .

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Re: Re: History Questions and Random Thoughts

Originally posted by molly bloom

Ancient Egyptian glass:

http://www.historyofglass.org.uk/AIHV2003/Developments.htm

Ptolemaic Egyptian glassware:

Well there you go. The Egyptians invented tat.

[BeBMan]

In my German translation of Herodotus' history he says there were 1,7 million soldiers in Xerxes' army against Hellas. Of course it's improbable that this is the real number, but the question remains how he expressed that in the original.

[Blaupanzer]

BeBro, good question. I do not know the answer and cannot read (interpret) ancient Greek, but would also be curious.

[Sandman]

Re: History Questions and Random Thoughts

Originally posted by Verto
She also said that the Egyptians became especially skilled with glass, and could form blue-colored glass so thin as to be worn like a contact lens (albeit not to correct vision, simply for looks).

I have to say, (without looking at Wikipedia) that this sounds pretty unlikely. Assuming that the Egyptians didn't have a germ theory of disease, the risk to vision would be considerable. Not that that would have stopped them, I suppose.

A thin blue glass contact lense wouldn't be that visible against the iris - so would they be whole-eye lenses, instead? This increases the risk of infection even more.

[molly bloom]

Re: Re: History Questions and Random Thoughts

Originally posted by Blaupanzer


Despite Molly's input as to "proposals" for greater numbers, it does appear that the Greeks did not have symbols for numbers above 10,000.

Ahem.

What is slightly more surprising is that the system had intermediate symbols for 50, 500, 5 000, and 50 000 but they were not new characters, rather they were composite symbols made from 5 and the symbols for 10, 100, 1 000, 10 000 respectively. Here is how the composites were formed.

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~~history/HistTopics/Greek_numbers.html

Eratosthenes is most famous for his calculation of the Earth's circumference:

Eratosthenes made a surprisingly accurate measurement of the circumference of the Earth. Details were given in his treatise On the measurement of the Earth which is now lost. However, some details of these calculations appear in works by other authors such as Cleomedes, Theon of Smyrna and Strabo. Eratosthenes compared the noon shadow at midsummer between Syene (now Aswan on the Nile in Egypt) and Alexandria. He assumed that the sun was so far away that its rays were essentially parallel, and then with a knowledge of the distance between Syene and Alexandria, he gave the length of the circumference of the Earth as 250,000 stadia.

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Mathematicians/Eratosthenes.html

Now, c'mon, he can't have counted out 250 000 barley grains to do his computations.


Interactive Eratosthenes:

http://www.math.utah.edu/~~pa/Eratosthenes.html

Happy looking chap: