Five years later: what's the answer?

[Thorgal]

Well, just saw in TV a report on the ground about current situation in Afghanistan made about a cople of weeks ago. To sumarize it: Eastern part of the country is mostly controlled by taleban "again". No women without burka nor men without beard, no music and all that stuff. Lots de posters in streets with the local hero Bin Laden, taleban heavily armed groups patrolling cities in total armony with Afghan police...

[Dis]

I'd be hurtin' if I had to grow a beard.

[RGBVideo]

re: using bodycounts as a measure of success

Originally posted by notyoueither

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Where is OBL? I recall something being said about dead or alive. Why has NATO been suprised by the Taliban?

Surprised? The body count mounts.

Originally posted by Gary Breecher
Body counts are a real bad sign. What they signal is that we're operating in a strategic vacuum, and the only claim we can make is dropping bad guys. When Westmoreland started counting dead Cong in Nam, it was because he didn't have a strategic plan. So the body counts went up and up, and the situation got worse and worse. Commanders under pressure to produce high counts started multiply the real number by two or three or ten. So even when we did kill a lot of Cong in the Tet offensive, nobody Stateside even wanted to know. They'd heard that tune too many times before.

[...]

Well, last week there was this so-called "firefight" in Samarra, and for the first time since Nam, we came out of it bragging about a body count. That's bad sign #1.

And then the locals started saying we made the count up. Bad sign #2.

It happened in Samarra on Sunday, November 30. You probably saw the CNN or Fox version. They called it a great victory for American firepower. The Army started off claiming it had killed 46 Iraqi "guerrillas." A day later, they upped the figure to 56 killed.

[...]

Bad as those hits were, there was something way, way worse: we weren't killing a single one of the attackers. Not one Iraqi died in the attacks on all those foreigners. That's the kind of thing that drives soldiers crazy.

Then comes this glorious firefight in Samarra. For once, the bastards stand and fight. And naturally, we blow them away with superior firepower. This time we got away clean, without a single dead GI. They paid the price.

And according to the Army's version, it was a nice clean kill: every one of the 56 enemy dead was a combatant.

That's when I started doubting the official version. I saw the battlezone. It was an urban ambush: as a US convoy carrying money to local banks was attacked from rooftops and alleys by 70 or more guerrillas firing RPGs, mortars, roadside bombs and small arms. The convoy fired back with MBT cannon, Bradley 25mm cannon, and small arms.

All this firepower in a crowded Iraqi street, and we didn't kill one single civilian? That was about as believable as a SWAT team machinegunning a suspect in the middle of a china shop without breaking a single cup. Nobody's that clean, except in some dumbass Chuck Norris movie.

The locals told a way different version: we'd only killed eight people, and most of them were civilians. They said the guerrillas did what guerrillas are supposed to do: fired and ran once they saw they were outgunned.

Just leaving patriotism out of it for a second, which version sounds likelier to you?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by DanS
OK, OK. This time I will write more clearly. Who is publishing these reports, or is NYE getting these reports from other sources?

Found it.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/060911/w091156.html

Canadian and international troops advance against little Taliban resistance
14:00:32 EDT Sep 11, 2006
Canadian Press: LES PERREAUX
PANJWAII, Afghanistan (CP) - Taliban fighters melted into the countryside Monday in an apparent fallback to a familiar tactic in the face of a well-armed foreign military.

Canadian troops and their allies walked into a village and its surrounding grape fields in the Panjwaii district, meeting no resistance along the way. The quick move deeper into the Arghandab River valley in this former Taliban stronghold buoyed the hopes of Canadian troops that the latest battle of Panjwaii, one of the biggest military operations for Canada since Korea, may be over soon.

The biggest danger Monday seemed to be shrapnel that whizzed through the sky from allied heavy bombardment and demolition efforts.

However, frontline troops found elaborate insurgent trenches and tunnels in this cluster of family compounds, an indication that key Taliban defences may yet lie ahead.

The insurgents may also fall back on traditional guerrilla tactics such as roadside bombs, ambushes, suicide bombings and booby traps after being badly outgunned in the recent attempt at a direct battle.

When frontline soldiers rolled through town Monday, they found trenches cut three metres into the ground along with tunnels and other escape routes.

The discovery sent a chill down the spine of the company commander leading Monday's push from the north, Maj. Geoff Abthorpe.

"Taking that bunker would have been a tough nut to crack. It could have cost us some boys," Abthorpe said.

"It looked like they were prepared for a fight, but I think over the last few days they lost their gumption to fight and they pulled out before we showed up."

Soldiers found a newer rocket-propelled grenade launcher, a coveted weapon that has killed and wounded dozens of NATO troops, along with explosives and bomb-making material.

Afghan soldiers were eager to show off a sweater from a Pakistani army uniform they'd found. Many Afghans blame Pakistan for the outbreak of violence in the country.

The Canadian-led NATO advance has moved methodically along the ground behind massive bombardment by artillery, warplanes and attack helicopters, often against small groups of fighters.

"If we do it the way we're doing it, one football field at a time, we're making great gains," Abthorpe said.

Army intelligence and local observers indicate many fighters are slipping away from the battlefield.

NATO has claimed more than 500 Taliban have died since the offensive was launched. However, Taliban spokesmen dismiss that figure as exaggerated and even the allied troops on the frontlines are discovering very few bodies as they advance.

On Monday, they found a few body parts and the smell of decomposing flesh hung in the air.

Forward Observation Officer Capt. Ian Plummer said his forces are using very heavy bombardment on relatively small groups of rebel fighters, a tactic rarely advised during military exercises.

While infantrymen have gunned down several insurgents, most casualties have come from aerial attack.

He confirmed his team of frontline air strike co-coordinators have killed several dozen insurgents in recent days.

"We seem to be ensuring there are very few enemy on our objectives," said Plummer. "I'm happy to suppress the enemy. It means fewer of our friendlies get killed."

Twenty NATO soldiers, including five Canadians, have died in the two weeks since NATO launched Operation Medusa, the attempt to take back this area in the heart of Taliban country.

Fifteen of them died in accidents, including 14 British servicemen who died in a plane crash and a Canadian who was accidentally strafed by a U.S. warplane. Several dozen Canadians were also injured in that incident.

With building Taliban strength, Canada's mission has turned quickly from a counter-insurgency with a heavy emphasis on local partnership and development to a conventional, very one-sided ground war.

Soldiers are revelling in a persistent rumour that Ottawa is going to send Leopard tanks to join the war.

Recent newspaper reports suggest as many as 20 of the 42-tonne Leopards may be shipped to Afghanistan, along with up to 300 military personnel to support them. But the federal government has not yet made a final decision.

Monday's battle was supposed to open with a massive air strike by U.S. B-1 and B-52 bombers but the run was cancelled when the aircraft arrived late.

The bombardment proved unnecessary with heavy fire from artillery and attack planes and helicopters sent in by Plummer's team.

"We've slipped into a semi-conventional effort, although I'm not sure I agree with the term," Abthorpe said.

"But we're fighting and winning the war while still doing reconstruction in the back and providing humanitarian aid."

Officials from Canada's Provincial Reconstruction Team have been visiting with local officials looking for projects to start reconstruction.

[notyoueither]

Re: re: using bodycounts as a measure of success

Originally posted by VJ

So, it's Vietnam now?

The point is we were not surprised. I've listened to the military and government spokesmen and I was under no illusion that Canadians were going to a parade based on them telling me that that combat is exactly what has been expected.