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"The End of Faith" (er, Agathon?)

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  • "The End of Faith" (er, Agathon?)

    This book was in the college bookstore today. I noticed it while I was buying books for classes, and skimmed it. It's pretty much what it promises: a condemnation of all religious belief, moderate or otherwise, as dangerous and delusional. It argues for the end of religious tolerance on the part of atheists, and so on.

    These sorts of thing stopped bothering me long ago; people have been claiming a new age of reason since before the American Revolution, Bertrand Russell made a better argument for it than this bozo, and it strikes me as so much hot air and revisionism, almost as silly as Intelligent Design in its own way.

    But I was given pause by something I saw in the notes at the end. I'm going from memory here, but it went something like:

    There is a certain naive school of realism which holds that what we experience with our senses must be "real," i.e. that if we can touch the table, it is real. While this attitude is a necessary heuristic for day-to-day life, neither I nor any philosophical student of modern realism would endorse it.
    It went on for a bit after that, but not in any relevant way that I could discern. Something about a thing remaining true even if nobody ever knew it, which makes perfect sense but seems utterly unimportant given the universal sense implied by the argument.

    I did some snooping on wikipedia, and it seems that the secular humanist press in general has very mixed feelings about the book. I am not assuming that he speaks for everyone here by any means. But I cannot see any way around the one conclusion to be drawn from this note: He appears to be disparaging empiricism in a book decrying faith and superstition. Snuh?

    I'm content to shrug this off as lone-nut talk if need be, but until tomorrow when I can ask my philosophy prof about it, I'm curious as to whether anybody here has encountered a strain of "modern philosophical realism" which does not hold physical experience up as the gold standard.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    Sounds good to me I'm sure Ecthy will agree
    Speaking of Erith:

    "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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    • #3
      Count me in!
      "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
      "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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      • #4
        On what? The main premise of the book, or non-empirical realism (whatever that is)?
        1011 1100
        Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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        • #5
          I willing to bet that they have no idea what they are agreeing to... but I'm with them
          Monkey!!!

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          • #6
            On "non-empirical realism", he's obviously a nihilist. Doesn't believe in faith or reason. And since he's set on eliminating religious belief, which will probably destroy civilization, he's keen to see it all go up in flames. So, nihilist.

            As for the main premise of the book, I'm an agnostic who leans towards atheism, yet I understand the importance and wisdom of religious belief. Not so much as for it's token nod to all we don't know about the universe, but because I think that, in all, it has done more good than harm. It's done a LOT of harm, I agree, but it's given structure to a lot of people's lives, and if in the end all it really does is keep people from absolute despair, or keeps them from running amok out of fear of retribution, then these are good things that help glue society together.

            Of course, I have a perverse nihilistic streak, and I'd think it would be kind of funny to see it all go up in flames if people lost faith the world over.

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            • #7
              On what? The main premise of the book, or non-empirical realism (whatever that is)?
              Neither. I think that faith will always be a result of human nature and society. Since non-faith requires considerably more mental and emotional resources than faith, it comes down to a personal decision of an individual. I don't mean to say that faith and non-faith are somehow equal (in a relative sense), as I believe non-faith to be the more logically true position. However, I don't think that we will ever see the end of faith.

              On the other hand, it's nice to see that the author of this book has hope .
              "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
              "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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              • #8
                Ajbera, what good has religion done for humanity?
                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                • #9
                  Sam Harris is am idiot. I started reading his book and was disgusted by it, it just gives ammo to the fundy nuts screaming that we want to percecute them. I don't give a damn what your beliefs are as long as you don't try to shove it down everyone's thoats, and that applies to fellow athiests. Religion will always be a part of human society and there is nothing we can do about it except to neutralize fundimentalism as best we can.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                    Ajbera, what good has religion done for humanity?

                    /me points to Mother Theresa.

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                    • #11
                      Mother Theresa took money from scam artist con men religious snake oil salesmen in the U.S. lending them her good name, treated her subordinate nuns like slaves, and only helped those who converted to Christianity. She even refused to return stolen money Charles Keating had given her.

                      See Christopher Hitchen's The Missionary Position
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                        Mother Theresa took money from scam artist con men religious snake oil salesmen in the U.S. lending them her good name, treated her subordinate nuns like slaves, and only helped those who converted to Christianity. She even refused to return stolen money Charles Keating had given her.

                        See Christopher Hitchen's The Missionary Position

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                        • #13
                          She weren't the saint everyone thinks she is.
                          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                          • #14
                            Hitchens pisses on everybody he knows, then wonders why nobody will buy him a drink.
                            Old posters never die.
                            They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....

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                            • #15
                              It must be hard being Hitchens.
                              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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