900 Days-Siege of Leningrad

[Grandpa Troll]

I remember way back when I did a piece in school on this topic.

Does anyone here feel the resolve of Russia helped stem the pride of The Third Reich during this siege?

I remember reading individual accounts and it was very horrific yet it must have been a terrible blemish against the Germans for succeeding.

I am trying to remember without going back and reading, but does anyone have any theories as to the overall implications of this campaign?

Gramps

[VetLegion]

The usual argument goes, I think: Hitler overstretched by trying to take Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow, concentrating on Moscow would have been better.

But given the sheer size of Russian production and the fact that it was located in the Urals and Baku, even taking Moscow would probably only postpone, not prevent, eventual German defeat.

[Grandpa Troll]

I covered this asa project and of course30 years later have different views and with the internet much more to research on.

I have read over and over where Hitler was looking more to embarass Stalin and doing personal decisions instead of winning a war.

I am going to enjoy this forum if we can continue to have civilized and factual debates and input.

It had to be a horrendous experience. A nightmare for survivors. It seems to me they found frozen bodies in the thaw in the spring. A pure shame War has to have such attrocities.

Gramps

[Rasbelin]

Overall the meaning of the siege of Leningrad for the WWII was little to non existant, because the main reasons for the fall of the Reich lie elsewhere. Hitler had his fixation for fearing especially an attack by the Western Allies, which lead to him transfering units to the Western front from the East, as well as focusing the defense construction projects on that front, rather than the East. Furthermore the whole split between two fronts and a bit later on three fronts was probably the biggest single reason for the ultimate downfall. Not to mention that he lacked equally strong allies beyond Japan, which too were a bit subpar.

The siege did of course require its share of resources, but it didn't really at any level determine the fall of the Reich.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Rasbelin
Overall the meaning of the siege of Leningrad for the WWII was little to non existant, because the main reasons for the fall of the Reich lie elsewhere. Hitler had his fixation for fearing especially an attack by the Western Allies, which lead to him transfering units to the Western front from the East, as well as focusing the defense construction projects on that front, rather than the East. Furthermore the whole split between two fronts and a bit later on three fronts was probably the biggest single reason for the ultimate downfall. Not to mention that he lacked equally strong allies beyond Japan, which too were a bit subpar.

The siege did of course require its share of resources, but it didn't really at any level determine the fall of the Reich.

Just curious, on the surface it did not appear so, but when over you look at the morale factor, helping Russia survive, do you think it is possible it exactly the opposite effect on Germany by them deep down seeing the resolve of Russia in the face of horrific conditions?

Maybe not, I was just curious, since unless all German Troops, (Not the brainwashed Seig Heil troops) but the ones actually carrying out the plans, were able to state how it determined their view of victory conditions over Russia, we may never know.

Gramps

[Frozzy]

The thing to remember is that the SU was never particularly interested in liberating Leningrad. Releasing Leningrad from the siege held little strategic value, and the adverse weather conditions in that particular area stopped the Germans from making any serious considerations about beginning a campaign in the region.

All in all the Leningrad siege is fairly irrelevant to the Eastern Front since neither side particularly cared about the region in the same way as they would have say Stalingrad, Moscow, etc.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Kalius
The thing to remember is that the SU was never particularly interested in liberating Leningrad. Releasing Leningrad from the siege held little strategic value, and the adverse weather conditions in that particular area stopped the Germans from making any serious considerations about beginning a campaign in the region.

All in all the Leningrad siege is fairly irrelevant to the Eastern Front since neither side particularly cared about the region in the same way as they would have say Stalingrad, Moscow, etc.

Ok, then why did they do a blockade for so long if it was irrelevant?

I am asking as it had to mean something, even if it was for propoghanda purposes...............

[Frozzy]

Ok, then why did they do a blockade for so long if it was irrelevant?

Fuhrer directive to not retreat.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Kalius


Fuhrer directive to not retreat.

Ok, now, I am again trying to understand, but do you think his (Adolph Hitler) directive was to attempt to manipulate the morale of the Russian people and also do you think maybe it did what his intent was, be it to be merciless upon the people of Russia or to show he could control Russia in a multitude of ways?

I am enjoying this Q & A back and forth, and want to understand more!

Gramps

[PLATO]

My Dad was in the Pacific so I have never concentrated much on the SU side of the European war. This is great stuff. I never realized the insignificance of Lenningrad and had always thought their sacrifices were a defining moment of Soviet victory.

I agree Gramps, this is going to be cool!

[Bosh]

Also Stalin's decision to not evacuate more people from Leningrad lead to a great number of needless deaths. The whole thing was based more on propaganda theater rather than military necessity on both sides...

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll

Just curious, on the surface it did not appear so, but when over you look at the morale factor, helping Russia survive, do you think it is possible it exactly the opposite effect on Germany by them deep down seeing the resolve of Russia in the face of horrific conditions?

Maybe not, I was just curious, since unless all German Troops, (Not the brainwashed Seig Heil troops) but the ones actually carrying out the plans, were able to state how it determined their view of victory conditions over Russia, we may never know.

The opinions of the privates and lower ranking field officers really have no real value when speaking of any war at a greater level, which I was doing in my initial reply. Indeed, they do however have a great importance when depicting how people saw and felt the war.

When speaking of what morale meant to the troops in the field, on the German side the overall mood seems to have been pretty forward looking until the losses began to pile up both in the West and East. Remember that not the Western Allies either were that confident on the troop level quite long into the campaign in the West, until it became quite obvious the war will be over soon. However let's put the feeling stuff aside now again. Because, as said, the outcome of the war was caused first and foremost by other factors.

Originally posted by Kalius Releasing Leningrad from the siege held little strategic value, and the adverse weather conditions in that particular area stopped the Germans from making any serious considerations about beginning a campaign in the region.

Not to mention that Hitler had expected to have the Finns assisting in pushing towards Leningrad and thus also resolving that issue. However Mannerheim had his objectives set elsewhere.

[Grandpa Troll]

Thanks for the replies

[Zoid]

The Soviets Baltic Fleet was also trapped in Leningrad and Kronstadt, the only baltic ports the russians had left. Stalin was of course very worried that Leningrad should fall into the hands of the nazis, thus depriving USSR of its only remaining acess to the Baltic as well as a sizeable part of the Soviet fleet. Also losing Leningrad would allow further onslaught on the already stretched Moscow defenses.

The nazis however hadn´t expected the kind of resolute resistance and heroism showed by the people of Leningrad. They tried to break the back of the resistance by starvation. But they didn´t succeed. This must´ve been a major blow to the Nazi ideas of the slavic people being weak untermenschen...

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Zoid
The Soviets Baltic Fleet was also trapped in Leningrad and Kronstadt, the only baltic ports the russians had left. Stalin was of course very worried that Leningrad should fall into the hands of the nazis, thus depriving USSR of its only remaining acess to the Baltic as well as a sizeable part of the Soviet fleet. Also losing Leningrad would allow further onslaught on the already stretched Moscow defenses.

The nazis however hadn´t expected the kind of resolute resistance and heroism showed by the people of Leningrad. They tried to break the back of the resistance by starvation. But they didn´t succeed. This must´ve been a major blow to the Nazi ideas of the slavic people being weak untermenschen...

See, thats what I am speaking of, Thanks Zoid

The German troops which are the backbone or doers of the mission would have sensed this, even Junior Officers. Of course fear of losing to the Soviets and fear of reprisal from German High Command would keep many in line and focused.

I believe this resolve shown by the Soviets had to have a PLUS for the Soviets and a Negative for the Germans.

In addition, the Germans, I wonder how they felt of the success of the mission across Lake Ladoga via the famous "Road of Life" ("Doroga Zhizni") ?

They did engage the exodus of the civilians, but a couple hundred thousand still escaped. This had to be an embarassment as well.

I found it interesting the various name changes this city went through. I also learned it was named after St.Peter not Peter The Great as I once had been informed


May, 1703 - August, 1914 St. Petersburg
August, 1914 - February, 1924 Petrograd
February, 1924 - July, 1991 Leningrad
July, 1991 - Present St. Petersburg

For all the city and its people had suffered through, it seems to me they would have used a rebuilding effort in the propoghanda efforts. They did a fantastic job restoring but not necessarily rebuilding. It was one of the lesser modernized cities but did a decent job overall.