Military Issues in Lebanon

[Gatekeeper]

I'm not a strategist by any means, but I wonder if "hard" warfare like the one between Israel and Hezbollah — and, to a lesser degree, between the U.S. military and Iraqi insurgents — could eventually lead to an end to warfare ... or a return to the "old days" of "total warfare" where an enemy and its support base (read: non-combatant enemy civilians) are utterly wiped out and the land "salted."

Hmphf. It'll probably end up being something in-between.

Gatekeeper

[Saras]

Links I thought military buffs (especially WinSPMBT players) will appreciate:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=434442&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88146

[Ecthy]

Az, Eli: stop talking this stuff here. This place is full of Israel haters who seek to support your enemies in any way they can

[Az]

Originally posted by Eli
Purely anecdotal evidence:

Israeli armor crews suck(relatively). They were used as infantry soldiers for the last few years, mainly guarding stuff here and there.

umm, while they were sometimes used as infantry soldiers, they still were mostly used as armor crews. The issue is more true for the artillery units.

[GePap]

One of israel's greatest strategic assets is the ability to mobilize a huge portion of ther population for war very quickly. While the standing armies of Syria and Egypt are larger than Israel's, and technically the reserves of both those countries are also bigger than Israel's, Israel can get its reserves ready much faster, meaning that for some crucial time the IDF will actually outnumber its enemies. The problem is that having such a huge section of your population in the military and fighting makes it difficult on the economy. So Israel goes for quick wars. Israel simply does not have the manpower to fight a protracted war with a much bigger enemy. Eventually the drain of having 10% of the population in the military becomes too great.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I'm not a strategist by any means, but I wonder if "hard" warfare like the one between Israel and Hezbollah — and, to a lesser degree, between the U.S. military and Iraqi insurgents — could eventually lead to an end to warfare ... or a return to the "old days" of "total warfare" where an enemy and its support base (read: non-combatant enemy civilians) are utterly wiped out and the land "salted."

Hmphf. It'll probably end up being something in-between.

Gatekeeper

Excellent question. It frustrates me when people say that you can't win a guerilla war. It's actually as simple as depopulating the area in question. That needn't be genocide, but it likely means "ethnic cleansing" in an ethnic enmity situation like the Israeli-Arab conflict. Of course this isn't the only way to fight a guerilla war, but it is the only likely way prevail without some other huge advantage.

[Patroklos]

Hez. is fairly well utilizing their relatively small number of modern Russian and European made ATMs.

I have seen nothing in the news or this thread to suggest this. It seems that like the US in Iraq Hezbollah is using its missiles mostly for knocking down the walls of buildings.

In any case, Hezbollah has wilited in every case when confronted with IDF forces. If the IDF wanted a position, they have it. I am not going to blame the IDF for not running in casualties be damned because you would like to see it on TV.

[Patroklos]

I'm not a strategist by any means, but I wonder if "hard" warfare like the one between Israel and Hezbollah — and, to a lesser degree, between the U.S. military and Iraqi insurgents — could eventually lead to an end to warfare ... or a return to the "old days" of "total warfare" where an enemy and its support base (read: non-combatant enemy civilians) are utterly wiped out and the land "salted."

I would not be suprised. Every time we recoil at the prospect of collateral civilian death/damage we validate the tacts of guerilla fighters using civilians a sheilds. Hence while from day to day we may kill fewer civilians, from year to year and conflict to conflict we end up killing god knows how many times more.

But we get to pat ourselves on the backs and tell ourselves we are not cruel because the TV cameras say so.

[MOBIUS]

Certainly Hezbollah is doing very well at causing military casualties compared to civilian ones - a two to one ratio despite randomly hitting all those civilian targets is pretty impressive...

I have one word for the IDF's difficulties in S. Lebanon: Schadenfreude.

They've blasted a country and its population to smithereens and now their much vaunted army is getting a bloody nose! Well boo-hoo, perhaps a whole load more IDF KIAs might be a good thing - maybe Israel will be forced to agree to a ceasefire after all...

Yes it's harsh, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for a nation whose tactics appear to be to deal with terrorist atrocities by undertaking even greater atrocities itself!

It's time the arrogant bastards got taught a lesson that they can't do what the hell they like after all!

Case in point: Supply.

Israel has bombed just about ever strategic bridge (150+ at last count) and road in the country supposedly to interdict Hezbollah supply lines...

Well it seems to me if the analysis is true regarding hezbollah's learning from its lessons in fighting an 'assymetrical' war and the fact its had 6 years to prepare - perhaps they don't need to resupply at all as all they need is already buried and stored in situ...!?

So all Israel has done is unite an entire nation against it and provided the recruits for the next chapter in this idiotic self-fulfilling prophecy of having to deal with pissed off Arabs...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I would not be suprised. Every time we recoil at the prospect of collateral civilian death/damage we validate the tacts of guerilla fighters using civilians a sheilds. Hence while from day to day we may kill fewer civilians, from year to year and conflict to conflict we end up killing god knows how many times more.

But we get to pat ourselves on the backs and tell ourselves we are not cruel because the TV cameras say so.

But at least the US acts like it gives a rat's arse about civilian casualties! Compared to the IDF the US is like an army of Mother Theresas!

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by GePap
Hizbullah has yet to actyually use Kornets. which are laser guided. They are using RPG29's and wire guided Metis missiles.

An NY Times article on the topic:

The IDF has also found Milan and TOW missiles on captured arms cache....I wonder if the TOWs are loot from Iraq.

[Seeker]

The antitank missiles are the “main fear” for Israeli troops, said David Ben-Nun, 24, an enlisted man in the Nahal brigade who just returned from a week in Lebanon.

Patroklus, it would help if you even causally glanced through the thread before commenting

[RGBVideo]

no catches

Originally posted by MOBIUS
...

0.9/10

[Lonestar]

Re: no catches

Originally posted by VJ

0.9/10

I look at his posts, I see words, but all I read is "Blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp".

[chequita guevara]

The best info I've gotten is that this is not a show by Iran, though they have certainly benefitted from it. Hizbollah staged a small raid, much like the small raids they've been doing for years, mainly to grab a guy to use as bargining collateral to get some Hizbollah fighters back. They were clearly surprised with the ferocity of the Israel response, but have definately put up a stiff resistence and have acquitted themselves well. I highly doubt that either Iran nor Syria expected the Israeli response, and so probably weren't involved in the decision to stage the raid.

Israel made a major miscalculation, thinking these guys would be pushovers like the Palestinians. Israel has suffered a strategic defeat. The rest of the Middle East will no longer fear them.