The Middle East Continues...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
Brilliant Insight.

Thanks, it wasn't supposed to be. It's supposed to illustrate the gaping holes in your reasoning.

[DinoDoc]

The sad thing is this post is only a few pages back...

Originally posted by GePap
You are entitled to your opinion. I think you are wrong, but you can think whatever you want.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=4543118#post4543118

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Thanks, it wasn't supposed to be. It's supposed to illustrate the gaping holes in your reasoning.

You got pwned once in this thread already boy. Don't get uppity.

[GePap]

Re: The sad thing is this post is only a few pages back...

Originally posted by DinoDoc

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...18#post4543118

I assume you are trying to point to LoTM's post.



Last time I checked, Hizbullah remains a guerilla force. None of the "terrible crimes" in that post are of any particular note or significantly different from other insurgent actions.

Again, given that Hizbullah lacks the technical ability to fire these rockets en mass aty military targets, they do the next best thing, aim at big targets.

Is that so hard to understand, really, is it?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by GePap


You are entitled to your opinion. I think you are wrong, but you can think whatever you want.

What, the whole "Ballbearings in missiles" thing wasn't convincing enough?

You have little basis but your biases to make that statement. The international press has a fairly accuarte count of over 500 people. And your statement is just as "valid" for Israeli civilians. Not all civilians are "non-combatants."

I gleefully admit to being biased towards the guys who are retaliating and using

Not killing as many as you can does not excuse killing people because of being trigger happy. 1 murder is not excused because you decided not to commit 20.

The difference is that that civilian casualties Israel cause can be better described as "unintentional manslaughter" rather than "premeditated murder", which is what Hezbollah is doing

Yes, just as AQ was able to carry out a complex plan like 9/11 but they can;t make tanks.

I was refering to cross-border attacks on military units/personnel vice launching missiles at cities. If they can go across the border, kidnap IDF personnel, then amscray back to Lebanon, then they have the expertise to attack other "hard targets" in Lebanon. They just chose not to because they'd rather kill as many of the Joos as possible.

You remmeber incorrectly. Hizbullah grew up in the part of Lebanon under Israeli control, as one of many militias, thought it only came into existance after 1982. Iran gave help because of course Hizbullah shares Iran's revolutionary ideology, but Syria was certainly NOT the creator or incubator of Hizbullah. Hizbullah became useful to Syria only after they proved to be the most effective anti_Israeli force in Lebanon.

see my Edit. Hezbollah was indirectly created by the PLO, because Israel invaded Lebanon after the PLO pulled the exact shame **** that Hezbollah is pulling now.

[DinoDoc]

Re: Re: The sad thing is this post is only a few pages back...

Originally posted by GePap
I assume you are trying to point to LoTM's post.

I am but you're looking at the wrong one. Post #283 is the relevent one not #279. I'm not sure why your refering to the list anyway.

Again, given that Hizbullah lacks the technical ability to fire these rockets en mass aty military targets, they do the next best thing, ....

Use tech (ball bearings) that is of limited value against military targets but of great value if your goal is to harm large numbers of civilians.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lonestar
What, the whole "Ballbearings in missiles" thing wasn't convincing enough?

As I told Dino, NO.

Hizbullah has a very primative strike ability at israel, ie. relativelty inaccurate rockets. They would rationally seek to maximize their lethality in order to make them more effective weapons. Since you can never guess if they will hit any structure, make them as lethal as possible to personnel (be it civilian or military). You do that because the point of those rockets is to try to "deter" Israel, justas the point of Israel mass bombing campaign is to "deter" Hizbullah. Both have failed strategically.

The difference is that that civilian casualties Israel cause can be better described as "unintentional manslaughter" rather than "premeditated murder", which is what Hezbollah is doing

NO. HIzbullah's murders can be thought of as "reckless murder". Hizbullah shoots rockets into Israel knowing full well they are likely to kill civilians, but no always (most don;t) and they will kill soldiers just as well (like the 12 killed in the single deadliest attack). Get your terminology correct at least.

I was refering to cross-border attacks on military units/personnel vice launching missiles at cities. If they can go across the border, kidnap IDF personnel, then amscray back to Lebanon, then they have the expertise to attack other "hard targets" in Lebanon. They just chose not to because they'd rather kill as many of the Joos as possible.

Nice how you ignore the actual development of this crisis. For most of the first 2 weeks there were almost no "hard targets" to hit in Lebanon because the Israelis were staying out of Lebanon and only putting troops in intermitently. As stated before, Hizbullah stopped shooting rockets into Israel when Israel stopped bombing Lebanon. If you look at the Israeli dead, most have been soldiers, killed in purely military attacks (those hard target attacks you speak of). At the same time Hizbullah has immense political and morale reasons to make the fight seem as "even" as possible, meaning that if Israel is bombing Lebanese towns and villages, then it pays politically for Hizbullah to show they have "similar" capabilities.

The simple question is this, had Israel not gone for a wideranging strategic air campaign against all of Lebanon, including Southern Beirut, would Hizbullah have carried out a rocket campaign of the type and scale they have carried out? I say no, and I think i can make a better arguement of it than you can.

see my Edit. Hezbollah was indirectly created by the PLO, because Israel invaded Lebanon after the PLO pulled the exact shame **** that Hezbollah is pulling now.

The Shiites of Lebanon hate the PLO, which is why they gave the IDF flowers when the IDF invaded to drive out the PLO. That Israel's occupation turned out to be more brutal than the PLO's, plus the impetus of the Iranian revolution is what brought about Hizbullah.

[GePap]

Re: Re: Re: The sad thing is this post is only a few pages back...

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Use tech (ball bearings) that is of limited value against military targets but of great value if your goal is to harm large numbers of civilians.

NO. Ball bearing have no use against hard targets, but have great use against personnel. All militaries have shrapnel rounds, intended specifically against personnel and not structures of armor.

That is the distinction. Whether the "soft target" happens to be civlians or soldiers is based on the general region that the rockets will fall into. One rockets landed in a train depot and killed 8 train engineers. one rocket landed in a car park full of soldiers and killed 12 soldiers.

[Flip McWho]

Hezbollah was indirectly created by the PLO, because Israel invaded Lebanon after the PLO pulled the exact shame **** that Hezbollah is pulling now.

What I get from the link you provided is that Hizbullah formed out of the ashes of the PLO that was left after the invasion in 1982, backed by Syria.
The cause for the formation of Hizbullah came after the PLO in south lebanon was rendered militarily ineffectual.

It seems Israel is committing the same mistake again. That link mentioned how that first one failed because although it destroyed the PLO's military ability their political ability wasn't affected. So although Israel may ultimately destroy Hizbullah's ability to conduct anything militarily against them, their political side of things appears to be strengthening.

But then the answer to this problem really lies in the UN sending an effectual force into the region to peacekeep, which we'll have to wait and see if they can manage that.

[GePap]

Once Israel decided to confront Hizbullah direclty and with overwhelming force, there was no question Hizbullah would have its military ability degraded. That was obsiouly going to happen.

In fact, the Lebanese government might be able to "establish its soverignty" militarilly over the south now. The issue is that once Nasrallah comes out of his bunker, he will be the most powerful man in Lebanon, and the most beloved leader in the whole Arab world.

This conflict also shows that militarilly things are getting less secure for Israel with time, not more. Military technology is undermining Israel's strenghts on the battlefield. They retain command of the air, but on the ground, which is the primary field of battle still hizbullah has shown that a well trained infantry force with plenty of anti-armor missiles can hurt the IDF.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by GePap

---

When Hizbullah crossed that blue line, israel had a PERFECT moral high ground. They had withdrawn, they were honoring Lebanon's borders (at least according to the UN). THey could have gotten most of the world on their side to pressure Lebanon to tackle Hizbullah, or at least seek the help to do so. They could have even carried out attacks against Hizbullah poitions accross the border, or raids vs. Hizbullah positions without any protest worldwide.

The second they bombed the international airport, began to bombs basic civilian infrastructure, and began wipping out neighborhoods and villages they lost international goodwide amongst the vast majority of states. Why? Because most people in the world find the idea that a 6000 member militia with artillery rockets to be an "existential threat" to a state with 120,000 man standing army, one of the world's greatests airforces, and nuclear weapons to be a ridiculous and obscene paranoid fantasy.

That pretty much sums up my view of the situation. I mean, how can you fight terrorism by massive airstrikes and artillery bombardment against civilian targets?

[notyoueither]

GePap is mostly right in the first paragraph of the quoted bit, but... Then the second...

The Israelis want to re-establish the 'deterence factor.' Well, they've done that, at some cost to their support around the world.

The other thing he is... weak on... is just what would force the rest of the world to actually spend money, or lives, to help Lebanon with its situation re Hezbollah?

Finally, the Lebanese thought the cost of dealing with Hezbollah outweighed the costs. I doubt they think that calculation was well grounded now. It sucks, but the government of Israel has a responsibility to its own citizens and soldiers before any other.

[MOBIUS]

Re: Re: Those Bloodthirsty Christians...!!!

Originally posted by lord of the mark
No, its cause ive actually decided that debating trolls is a waste of time.

I agree - debating trolls is a waste of time.

However I and making a reasonable point, which you appear unable to counter.

Indeed by accusing my reasonable point as being a 'troll', surely you are the one deliberately spreading false information. Hence by that logic you yourself are a) The Troll, and b) guilty of gross hypocrisy.

Just cause you can troll, doesnt make me your personal research service.

But don't you see, by easily providing the truth you could effortlessly slap my argument down and expose my 'troll'...

Just go to the library and read a standard history of the Jews of the muslim world. You'll see a fair share of ethnic cleansings, though less than in Christian Europe. Note that the patterns in Europe varied over time too. Antisemitism is a complex phenomenon.

I have. muslim persecution of the jews palls into insignificance in frequency, barbarity, numbers killed - just about any measure, compared with that of the christians...

You have don't nothing to refute this, except abuse the definition of what a troll is...

So again, I put it to you that muslims didn't excessively start hating jews until they started muscling in on Palestine in the 20th C. Indeed jews often flocked to muslim lands to find sanctuary from those evil christians (like Martin Luther)...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, Luther was a bastard. Religious fanatics can be that way.

Setting aside the historical discussion for a moment... what is Israel's plan again? I'm not seeing it. Or maybe I am, and I think it's dumb. Not sure which.

-Arrian

Indeed I would like one of the pro-Israeli lot to point out all the things Israel has accomplished, such as destroying hezb, or at least getting them to stop firing their missiles into Israel...

All I am seeing is the systematic destruction of a peaceful neighbour, the deaths of hundreds of children and the 'Mediterranean's worst ever environmental catastrophe'...

Not quite going to plan is it...?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by MOBIUS




Indeed I would like one of the pro-Israeli lot to point out all the things Israel has accomplished, such as destroying hezb, or at least getting them to stop firing their missiles into Israel...

All I am seeing is the systematic destruction of a peaceful neighbour, the deaths of hundreds of children and the 'Mediterranean's worst ever environmental catastrophe'...

Not quite going to plan is it...?

I think its going perfectly to plan if we are talking about hezbollah's plans