The Middle East Continues...

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
And how are their (the 1.4 million Lebanese Shiites) interests served by unprovoked aggression against a neighbor?

Hizbullah had been hinting for months that they planned to kidnap Israeli soldiers in order to carry out a prisoner swap (ahrd to do if you don;t have prisoners). Israel decided to use that operation as an excuse to strike far and wide against Hizbullah. Israel had many options- they chose massive retaliation in order to "restore deterrence", ie. "Kill lots more Arabs than Jews so we achieve peace not through mutual understanding but fear and domination."

Its basurd to "fault" Hizbullah for the actions of Israel. Hizbullah chose to attack Israel and carry out the raid. It was Israel that decided to launch a massive air campaignh to devastate Lebanon as its response. Each side is responsible for their own actions. And for the human suffering each has caused.

[Kuciwalker]

Hizbullah had been hinting for months that they planned to kidnap Israeli soldiers in order to carry out a prisoner swap (ahrd to do if you don;t have prisoners).

That makes it all better?

"Kill lots more Arabs than Jews so we achieve peace not through mutual understanding but fear and domination."

Hamas (yes, I know, it's not Hezbollah) believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are true. Mutual understanding?

[Flip McWho]

Hezbollah is following the tactic of "fire randomly into a city" rather than specific targets.

Not to specifically kill people, though that's an added bonus from their pov. It's to terrorise, hence why they are terrorists.

The tactics quite smart really. Rain down indiscriminate missles who mostly either miss or kill very few and entice the enemy into attacking back who then kill many more innocents then the terrorists have thus resulting in support for the terrorists.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was calculated by Hizbullah as they thought that with a strengthening Lebanonese state their days as a 'saviour' of the south lebanonese people were numbered and needed something to boost their popularity again

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lonestar

Again, Israel has been striking targets dispite their proximity to civilian areas; Hezbollah has been firing rockets at cities because they are civilian areas. A seemingly fine distinction, but to me at least, an important one.

Maybe Hizbullah has been shooting at densely built up areas because otherwise they would hit nothing as rockets are highly inaccurate. Its tactics based on the available technology.

I'm not sure if that's an apt comparision. While Hezbollah may have the desire and intent to wipe the Jewish state off the face of the planet, Israel would rather they just stop bombing/kidnapping their folks.

And somehow the Israelis always manage to kill far more Arab civilians than "the terrorist."

If Hezbollah were really so hellbent on preventing civilian casulties, they would limit their strikes to cross border raids on IDF locations or missile attacts on IDF facilities away from major cities. Since IDF facilities are the very defination of "Hard targets" they have opt to go for "soft" ones...i.e. civilian areas.

Except, of course, that Hizbullah lacks the technical ability to do so. That is the nature of guerilla warfare.

But this isn't WW2. While Hezbollah may be fighting a "total war" with their limited assets, Israel is not. Why Hezbollah may like to see Israel wiped from the planet, I'm fairly certain Israel would be happy if Hezbollah just stopped ****ing around.

Both sides are responsible for the political conditions that keep the conflict alive. Lets recall who is inderetcly reposnsible for the creation of Hizbullah - the government of Israel.

[Flip McWho]

Now I just need someone to admit what I already know and say who's interests actually are being served by starting this conflict.

Obviously Hizbullah's (possibly Syria/Iran's as well). But then obviously Israel's interests are being served by the conflict as well as Americas.

Remember that the actual war started when Israel retaliated against the initial kidnapping of the soldiers.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
That makes it all better?

No doofus. That is to show that Hizbullah's action should not have been a surprise. Hizbullah had limited aims. Israel decided to try for an endgame.

Hamas (yes, I know, it's not Hezbollah) believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are true. Mutual understanding?

And this meanigless drivel matters how?

[Flip McWho]

That small minority seems to have no problem getting missiles from Syria and Iran and firing them into Israel.

Because it isn't only a small minority that hate the Israeli's.

[Kuciwalker]

Both sides are responsible for the political conditions that keep the conflict alive. Lets recall who is inderetcly reposnsible for the creation of Hizbullah - the government of Israel.

Let's remember who is indirectly responsible for the creation of Hezbollah - the government of the UK! Obviously they should shoot rockets at London, too.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Let's remember who is indirectly responsible for the creation of Hezbollah - the government of the UK! Obviously they should shoot rockets at London, too.

Jesus, don;t they teach you anything? The level of ignorance is astounding!

France controlled Syria and decided to create Lebanon as a Maronite dominated land.

Blame the right European imperialist power next time!

And as for the rockets: Hizbullah has been rather up-front with their campaign. If Israel is going to bomb all of Lebanon, they get to bomb back israel. When Israel cut back bombing for those 48 hours, Hizbullah did so as well.

Last time I looked, if you shoot at people, they get to shoot back.

[Kuciwalker]

Israel is the UK's fault.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Israel is the UK's fault.

Brilliant Insight.

Thought the "blame" can be shared a bit more widely.

The point of that post, oh 'genius' is that one would have hoped Israel would have gotten the point that they can't bludgeon people into liking them. The same Shiites that gave them flowers 24 years ago probably want them all dead or on a boat 'back to Europe', and they have only themselves to blame for that attitude.

When Hizbullah crossed that blue line, israel had a PERFECT moral high ground. They had withdrawn, they were honoring Lebanon's borders (at least according to the UN). THey could have gotten most of the world on their side to pressure Lebanon to tackle Hizbullah, or at least seek the help to do so. They could have even carried out attacks against Hizbullah poitions accross the border, or raids vs. Hizbullah positions without any protest worldwide.

The second they bombed the international airport, began to bombs basic civilian infrastructure, and began wipping out neighborhoods and villages they lost international goodwide amongst the vast majority of states. Why? Because most people in the world find the idea that a 6000 member militia with artillery rockets to be an "existential threat" to a state with 120,000 man standing army, one of the world's greatests airforces, and nuclear weapons to be a ridiculous and obscene paranoid fantasy.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by GePap


Maybe Hizbullah has been shooting at densely built up areas because otherwise they would hit nothing as rockets are highly inaccurate. Its tactics based on the available technology.

I disagree. If Hezbollah had the most accurate of cruise missiles and smart baombs I think they would still intentional hit stuff with the intent for alot of dead civilians.

And somehow the Israelis always manage to kill far more Arab civilians than "the terrorist."

That's assuming that (1) the numbers that are coming out of Lebanon are correct (which I'm hesistant to accept as correct, if only from the rampant photoshopping going on by BBC, Reuters, and other major news corporations) and (2) Many of these civilians are civilians and not "noncombatants". You don't have to be totting a gun to count as a bad guy, meat shield works just as well, legally speaking.

In any event, Israel is hitting targets without trying to maximise civilian casualties, which makes them the moral "winner" in this.

Except, of course, that Hizbullah lacks the technical ability to do so. That is the nature of guerilla warfare.

They lack the technical ability and yet they can do cross border kidnappings...

Both sides are responsible for the political conditions that keep the conflict alive. Lets recall who is inderetcly reposnsible for the creation of Hizbullah - the government of Israel.

Syria is, IIRC.

EDIT: As I was, Syria and PLO(*ahem* the PA) are indirectly responsible for Hezbollah.

[Flip McWho]

Wasn't hizbullah formed to fight the occupation of south lebanon by israeli forces?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Wasn't hizbullah formed to fight the occupation of south lebanon by israeli forces?

Look at my Edit.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lonestar


I disagree. If Hezbollah had the most accurate of cruise missiles and smart baombs I think they would still intentional hit stuff with the intent for alot of dead civilians.

You are entitled to your opinion. I think you are wrong, but you can think whatever you want.

That's assuming that (1) the numbers that are coming out of Lebanon are correct (which I'm hesistant to accept as correct, if only from the rampant photoshopping going on by BBC, Reuters, and other major news corporations) and (2) Many of these civilians are civilians and not "noncombatants". You don't have to be totting a gun to count as a bad guy, meat shield works just as well, legally speaking.

You have little basis but your biases to make that statement. The international press has a fairly accuarte count of over 500 people. And your statement is just as "valid" for Israeli civilians. Not all civilians are "non-combatants."

In any event, Israel is hitting targets without trying to maximise civilian casualties, which makes them the moral "winner" in this.

Not killing as many as you can does not excuse killing people because of being trigger happy. 1 murder is not excused because you decided not to commit 20.

They lack the technical ability and yet they can do cross border kidnappings...

Yes, just as AQ was able to carry out a complex plan like 9/11 but they can;t make tanks.

It should not be that diffciult to make.

Syria is, IIRC.

You remmeber incorrectly. Hizbullah grew up in the part of Lebanon under Israeli control, as one of many militias, thought it only came into existance after 1982. Iran gave help because of course Hizbullah shares Iran's revolutionary ideology, but Syria was certainly NOT the creator or incubator of Hizbullah. Hizbullah became useful to Syria only after they proved to be the most effective anti_Israeli force in Lebanon.