The Middle East Continues...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Geronimo
if all of the s were removed from Mobius's posts in this thread I could almost begin to believe he isn't really trolling this time.

Actually I rarely if ever troll. I tend to find that the people who accuse me of trolling are the ones who can't organise an effective argument to my reasoned posts.

Generally I use the for where I am stating the obvious, pointing out facts that embarrass my opponents' positions. Stuff like that.

If people allow their emotions to cloud their reasoning, they shouldn't get involved in debates. I don't pull any punches, and I don't see why the pro-Israel-bombing-the-crap-out-of-everything-that-moves should be treated with kid gloves in case I wound their pride. It just sounds like sour grapes to me and I partly measure my success against those that lose their cool because they obviously can't handle it.

If someone doesn't wish to be reminded that their side is indiscriminately (i.e. not taking enough care to avoid) killing women and children, then they should stop trying to justify the disproportionality of Israel's response for example...

I give reasoned arguments the way I see it (it is called an opinion), unlike some whose sole purpose appears to shadow me from thread to thread making yappy little comments without adding anything of substance... (i.e. we all know who I'm talking about...)

Besides if I were really trolling, you'd easily be able to refute my statements...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Geronimo
it needs to tie in with lebanon/israeli crisis. Obviously referencing other conflicts can help understand the roots of this crisis as well as establish standards of conducts.

Ignore other conflicts at your peril, for often they provide an insight to the one you are dealing with.

[BeBMan]

I am always right too

[MOBIUS]

Those Bloodthirsty Christians...!!!

Hey LOTM,

I worked out why you didn't want to reply to me - it's because you cannot give me any decent examples of muslim pogroms (note: a word derived from Christian Orthodox Russia... ) in any comparison whatsoever...

Compared to the muslims, the christians are murderous genocidal bastards when it comes to killing Jews...

OK, granted it is only wiki - I'm being lazy again...

BUT! The vast majority of massacres of Jews were perpetrated by christians, not muslims. With a very few exceptions any muslim persecution was usually forced convertion or expulsion - but even those were rare compared to the sheer deluge of christian examples!

Also the worst muslim ones appear to be by an invading army (never good), and a madman (Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah. I remember this nutcase from when I visited Egypt! )

Time and again the wiki piece mentions the Jews leaving for Palestine to escape the christian persecution!

Also almost all the attacks on Jews have been after the rise of zionism in the 19th C., around the time the locals started feeling threatened by mass Jewish immigration to Palestine...

I put it to you that the arabs didn't start feeling threatened/hating Jews until they were given good reason to when Zionism started its relentless colonisation of their lands from the late 19th C. to early 20th C.

Before that time they seemed relatively welcoming and tolerant of an established Jewish community in their midst.

==============


Here is an interesting publication from 'Mr Protestant Church' himself...

1543
In his pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies Martin Luther advocates an eight-point plan to get rid of the Jews as a distinct group either by religious conversion or by expulsion:
"...set fire to their synagogues or schools..."
"...their houses also be razed and destroyed..."
"...their prayer books and Talmudic writings... be taken from them..."
"...their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb..."
"...safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews..."
"...usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them..." and "Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [certain amount]..."
"...young, strong Jews and Jewesses [should]... earn their bread in the sweat of their brow..."
"If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs."

[Arrian]

Yeah, Luther was a bastard. Religious fanatics can be that way.

Setting aside the historical discussion for a moment... what is Israel's plan again? I'm not seeing it. Or maybe I am, and I think it's dumb. Not sure which.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Re: Those Bloodthirsty Christians...!!!

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Hey LOTM,

I worked out why you didn't want to reply to me

No, its cause ive actually decided that debating trolls is a waste of time.

Just cause you can troll, doesnt make me your personal research service. Just go to the library and read a standard history of the Jews of the muslim world. You'll see a fair share of ethnic cleansings, though less than in Christian Europe. Note that the patterns in Europe varied over time too. Antisemitism is a complex phenomenon.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Geronimo


They weren't prior to the current crisis. Previously hezbollah launched it's rockets in the vicinity of IDF facilities. Hezbollahs decision to start explicitly 'targeting' cities is simple retaliation in kind.

Mmm...I disagree. Hezbollah started firing rockets at Israeli cities after the IDF responded with punitive strikes against Hezbollah targets in order to try to get their men back.

Again, Israel has been striking targets dispite their proximity to civilian areas; Hezbollah has been firing rockets at cities because they are civilian areas. A seemingly fine distinction, but to me at least, an important one.

Like the US targeting soviet cities in the cold war in the event that nukes were sent towards US cities.

I'm not sure if that's an apt comparision. While Hezbollah may have the desire and intent to wipe the Jewish state off the face of the planet, Israel would rather they just stop bombing/kidnapping their folks.

The hezbollah rockets were pathetically inaccurate sure, but so were the planes the allies used in daylight bombing in ww2. You gotta use the tools you have in war. Hezbollahhaving crappy tools doesn't necessarily make them terrorists.

If Hezbollah were really so hellbent on preventing civilian casulties, they would limit their strikes to cross border raids on IDF locations or missile attacts on IDF facilities away from major cities. Since IDF facilities are the very defination of "Hard targets" they have opt to go for "soft" ones...i.e. civilian areas.

Now that they are clearly directing the rockets at cities we could make a comparison to ww2 again.

But this isn't WW2. While Hezbollah may be fighting a "total war" with their limited assets, Israel is not. Why Hezbollah may like to see Israel wiped from the planet, I'm fairly certain Israel would be happy if Hezbollah just stopped ****ing around.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, Luther was a bastard. Religious fanatics can be that way.

Setting aside the historical discussion for a moment... what is Israel's plan again? I'm not seeing it. Or maybe I am, and I think it's dumb. Not sure which.

-Arrian

At this point I think its to A. Destroy as many Hezb terrorists, weapons, command and control as possible before a ceasefire. B. Especially to weaken Hezb materially in a band of southern Leb South of the Litani C. To press the international community to establish a strong international force for when Israel withdraws

I find it interesting that Lebanese politicians, who claim to blame the situation largely on Israel, are nonetheless quibbling about the terms of a ceasefire resolution, giving Israel MORE time to attack Hezbollah.

I suspect we wont really know whats happened here for a long time after its over.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Tell that to the UN!

I think they know, that's why Lebanon is whining about a "watered down" resolution.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, Luther was a bastard. Religious fanatics can be that way.

All fanatics can be that way. Im reading Robert Conquests "Harvest of Sorrow" on the terror-famine in the Ukraine.

Anti-religious fanatics have killed their share of Jews, Ukrainians, etc, etc.

[MKSheppard]

The Arabs do not *** with the West. It is only a small fraction of the population that does that.

O RLY?

I remember on 9/11 the Moslems all over the world Cheering, particularly in "Palestine".

Anyway, this has been going on since 1948. The A-Rabs do not even recognize Israel as a legimitate entity, and have been fighting a terror war against the "zionist entity", even when the West Bank was under Jordanian Hashemite Kings, and the Gaza Strip was Egyptian.

Plus, you got the nuts in Iran making all kinds of remarks about destroying Israel, and marching closer to the Bomb. This will go Nuclear Eventually, and Israel will utterly destroy her enemies.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


All fanatics can be that way. Im reading Robert Conquests "Harvest of Sorrow" on the terror-famine in the Ukraine.

Anti-religious fanatics have killed their share of Jews, Ukrainians, etc, etc.

Correct. Fanatics, full stop.

-Arrian

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Hezbollah is following the tactic of "fire randomly into a city" rather than specific targets. If they aren't trying to maximise civilian casulties, then they at least care less than the Israelis do if any die.

Which means none of the parts care at all

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

This has been normal practice at least since christianity spread throughout western europe. Early churches were often build on celtic/germanic religious sites.

Do churches kick out people who believe in those religions?

They did 1600 years ago. Which in no way validates modern similar actions.

[Kuciwalker]

Well, it looks like the conflict may be grinding to a halt.