The Middle East Continues...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
That small minority seems to have no problem getting missiles from Syria and Iran and firing them into Israel.

Maybe because Israel is occupying Syrian land?

Israel is involved in the daily injustice of occupying and colonising numerous territories illegally - if it stopped, would Iran risk the ire of the world with such a hard on for Israel? I think not.

Take the IRA. Once the UK started trying to talk to them instead of fighting for them, their support has fallen away both in Ireland and in the US. Don't get me wrong, they still exist but their ability to inflict terrorist attacks is massively weakened - indeed if members of the IRA were to do something now, they would probably be informed on by members of their own community...

Remember, the IRA came about because of the brutal suppression of the Irish by Britain - if you stop giving people a reason to fight, they will stop...

[dannubis]

maybe they just wanted to be left alone? maybe there wans't much they could do about it?

or maybe they just didn't care. just like none of us cared up until a few weeks ago.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Hezbollah is following the tactic of "fire randomly into a city" rather than specific targets. If they aren't trying to maximise civilian casulties, then they at least care less than the Israelis do if any die.

Random explosive devices aimed at large civilian areas filled with ball-bearings...

Compared to...

Airstrikes, Artillery etc fired with little care if it hits the civilian population or not...

[lord of the mark]

"In a letter to the editor of the Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel a Lebanese Shia explains how after Israel’s withdrawal from South Lebanon, Hezbollah stored rockets in bunkers in his town and built a school and residence over it.

I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.

Dr. Mounir Herzallah
Berlin-Wedding"

I cannot vouch for the source.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Actually, probably the biggest irony of ironies in this whole sorry saga - is the fact that almost since the dawn of christianity Jews have found welcome sanctuary in a tolerant muslim Palestine AWAY from the murderous persecution of christian lands!

You need to learn alot more about the history of Jews in Muslim lands.

[DinoDoc]

MOBIUS: What do you care? They brought it on themselves. Reap the whirlwind and all.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Random explosive devices aimed at large civilian areas filled with ball-bearings...

Compared to...

Airstrikes, Artillery etc fired with little care if it hits the civilian population or not...

Again, the Israelis are aiming at specific, military targets, which makes them morally superior to the Hezbollah Tactic of "Just letting loose at big city".

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by dannubis
maybe they just wanted to be left alone? maybe there wans't much they could do about it?

Maybe Israel wants to be left alone, too. Y'know, it sucks for them, but there isn't a better alternative.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
You need to learn alot more about the history of Jews in Muslim lands.

Then teach me oh great one - because as best as I can tell all the worst pogroms etc happened in christian Europe. As far as I can tell islam is far more tolerant to the jewish faith than christianity ever was...

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by MOBIUS


"The object of the Zionist movement was to create a 'Jewish State' in control of their own affairs. This little fact in itself displaces the local population from controlling its own affairs - and also hints at some sort of institutional discrimination...

Ahad Ha'am's words way back in 1891 ("Truth from Eretz Israel") seem crystal clear in their prophecies..."

Firstly you are undercutting yourself, since Ahad Ha'am was also a Zionist, though he was skeptical about statehood. He wanted a jewish national home, even if it was not to be a state. There was much conflicting discussion among those who wanted a state about the institutional arrangements.

Regarding agriculture, Ahad Haam, brilliant man though he was, was wrong. In fact they found plenty of untilled land that proved tillable, once modern techniques of fertilization, irrigation, swamp drainage, etc were applied.

"Not to mention the creation of organisations such as Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi (AKA the Stern Gang ) who felt sufficiently strongly about having their own state that they would kill those that got in their way - including Arabs, the British and even UN ambassadors trying to sort things out...!"


The Haganah was the defense organization which among other things put down the Irgun and Stern Gang.

The Stern gang was a tiny, marginal group.

The history of the Irgun was complex, and while I would not approve of their methods, and am glad David Ben Gurion and the Haganah disarmed them, their terrorism has been exagerated by various folks.

"In the final analysis, the creation of the Jewish State of Israel was by definition a violent wresting of land from its rightful occupiers in a racially discriminatory manner by outsiders."

I dont think you really know what "by definition" means.

"Would you sit idly by while strangers from overseas seek to subvert your freedoms by sheer weight of numbers? I doubt it."

The arabs under the Ottoman empire were hardly free, many of the Jews who came were from other parts of the Ottoman empire, many of the arabs were themselve immigrants, and the Jews were by no means strangers to the land.

If the Nez Perce, who fled to Canada from white persecution in the US, were to come back, claiming a right of free return, would we oppose it?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Lebanon: Hezbollah Rocket Attacks on Haifa Designed to Kill Civilians
Anti-personnel Ball Bearings Meant to Harm “Soft” Targets
(New York, July 18, 2006) – Hezbollah's attacks in Israel on Sunday and Monday were at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians. Either way, they were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

Attacking civilian areas indiscriminately is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can constitute a war crime.

Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch


In addition, the warheads used suggest a desire to maximize harm to civilians. Some of the rockets launched against Haifa over the past two days contained hundreds of metal ball bearings that are of limited use against military targets but cause great harm to civilians and civilian property. The ball bearings lodge in the body and cause serious harm.

Hezbollah has reportedly fired more than 800 rockets into Israel from southern Lebanon over the past five days, killing 12 civilians and wounding many more. The vast majority of these rockets, as in past conflicts, have been Katyushas, which are small, have a range limited to the border area, and cannot be aimed with precision. Hezbollah has also fired some rockets in the current fighting that have landed up to 40 kilometers inside Israel.

“Attacking civilian areas indiscriminately is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can constitute a war crime,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “Hezbollah’s use of warheads that have limited military use and cause grievous suffering to the victims only makes the crime worse.”

On Monday, Human Rights Watch researchers inspected a three-story apartment building in Haifa's Bat Galim neighborhood after it was struck by a rocket around 3:00 p.m., causing extensive damage to the top two floors and wounding six residents, one of them seriously. They collected metal ball bearings that had pierced the walls of the apartment building across the street and car windshields up to one block away.



An Israeli ordinance removal expert at the scene told Human Rights Watch that the rocket used in the attack had a 240mm warhead. According to media reports, Hezbollah announced that it had fired dozens of Raad 2 and Raad 3 anti-tank missiles into Haifa in response to “aggressions against various Lebanese regions.” An Israeli military official told the press on Sunday that Hezbollah had fired at least three Syrian-made Fajr-3 missiles.

On Sunday, a Hezbollah rocket killed eight workers in Haifa’s main railway depot. Doctors who treated the wounded told Human Rights Watch that the rockets contained metal ball bearings. The ball bearings have increased the number and seriousness of injuries from rocket fire, the doctors said.

“In my medical opinion, they [these rockets] are supposed to injure as many people as possible,” said Dr. Eran Tal-Or, director of the Surgical Emergency Room at Haifa's Ramban Hospital. “If you wanted to bring down a building, you would make a weapon with a heavier blast. And you wouldn't bother with the balls inside that don't do much harm to buildings; just to people.”

Human Rights Watch interviewed three railway workers at the hospital wounded by the ball bearings in Sunday’s lethal blast.

“There were three loud booms and I started running out of the depot,” said Alek Vensbaum, 61, a worker at the Israel Train Authority. “One of the guys, Nissim, who was later killed, yelled at everyone to run to the shelter. The fourth boom got me when I was nearly at the door, and I was hit by shrapnel ... I was hit by ball bearing-like pieces of metal in my neck, hand, stomach and foot.”



Haifa apartment building hit by Hezbolah rockets. © 2006 Human Rights Watch

Sami Raz, 39, a railway electrician, said a ball bearing pierced his lung and lodged near his heart. “I had terrible difficulty breathing after I was hit,” he said.

Twelve people were wounded in the attack, four of them seriously.

thanks!

This clearly shows Hezbollah has had cells engaging in wanton terrorist activity.

I don't understand why israel waited until the far more minor issue of the capture of some of it's soldiers to respond robustly and why israel isn't including a renunciation of such specific terrorist activity by hezbollah in it's demands rather than only making specific reference to the capture of the soldiers and the rockets. Neither of which are terrorist attacks but rather would qualify as ordinary military aggression.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
MOBIUS: What do you care? They brought it on themselves. Reap the whirlwind and all.

Are we ever going to get a sensible non sniping from the background comment from you without you having to change your name?

Nah, didn't think so

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Then teach me oh great one - because as best as I can tell all the worst pogroms etc happened in christian Europe. As far as I can tell islam is far more tolerant to the jewish faith than christianity ever was...

No, ive done enough posting of facts on that aspect of Jewish historyhere. Im not wasting my time. There are many histories of the Jews in Islamic lands available. They will reveal a much more complete picture.

But as youve moderated your statement to "the WORST pogroms" I suspect you have a hint of the truth.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Again, the Israelis are aiming at specific, military targets, which makes them morally superior to the Hezbollah Tactic of "Just letting loose at big city".

Tell that to the UN!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ironically the French occupied Alsace Lorraine does that mean the Germans were justified in WW2?

About time this thread got Godwinized.