The Middle East Continues...

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Strangely enough, despite apparently targeting civilians hizbullah have actually killed more IDF than civilians (Israel's confirmed death toll so far in three weeks of asymmetric conflict is 58 soldiers and 34 civilians. The Times, today)

Strangely enough, the IDF is on the ground engaging Hezbollah in gun fights too. COINCIDENCE? I think no.

I put it to you. Who are the real terrorists? Or at least the terrorists most effective at killing civilians?

As always, the terrorists are the ones attempting to maximize civilian casulties. So...yep, that would be Hezbollah.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

This has been normal practice at least since christianity spread throughout western europe. Early churches were often build on celtic/germanic religious sites.

Do churches kick out people who believe in those religions?

Actually, probably the biggest irony of ironies in this whole sorry saga - is the fact that almost since the dawn of christianity Jews have found welcome sanctuary in a tolerant muslim Palestine AWAY from the murderous persecution of christian lands!

[Flubber]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Yes, but if you take away as many of those reasons as possible - you are left with a small minority of extremists whose effectiveness would be severely limited...

One of your comments I can agree with !!

I fear that for every innocent killed in lebanon you get a bunch more people that will embrace ANY measures against Israel. Many people that would be moderate may not be any longer.

Unfortunately that will be the case until people start blaming the combatants that site themselves among innocents more than the people that fire upon them

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Strangely enough, the IDF is on the ground engaging Hezbollah in gun fights too. COINCIDENCE? I think no.

Strangely enough Israel suddenly started actually killing hezb members too...

As always, the terrorists are the ones attempting to maximize civilian casulties. So...yep, that would be Hezbollah.

By your logic regarding civilians killed...

Hezb = 34
IDF = 900+

So using your logic the IDF are way out front in the terrorist stakes, seeing as they are maximising civilian casualties and all...

[Kuciwalker]

That small minority seems to have no problem getting missiles from Syria and Iran and firing them into Israel.

[dannubis]

So , perhaps a bunch of farmers should take their pitchforks and block those convoys then ...

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Strangely enough, the IDF is on the ground engaging Hezbollah in gun fights too. COINCIDENCE? I think no.



As always, the terrorists are the ones attempting to maximize civilian casulties. So...yep, that would be Hezbollah.

for the record how do we know that hezbollah wants to maximise civilian casualties?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Strangely enough Israel suddenly started actually killing hezb members too...

Yepper.

By your logic regarding civilians killed...

Hezb = 34
IDF = 900+

So using your logic the IDF are way out front in the terrorist stakes, seeing as they are maximising civilian casualties and all...

Untrue. If they were seeking to maximise(great, I'm spelling it with an "s" now) civilian casulties they would simply fire cheap-ass rockets willy-nilly into populated areas. As opposed to specific targets with muy expensive smart bombs.

Nyah

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Geronimo
For the record was a consensus ever acheived here as to whether firing unguided rockets into enemy territory constitutes terrorism?

It seems quite different from say, planting a bomb in a bus or synagogue or directing a suicide bomber into a disco. Does anyone know of a list somewhere that itemizes hezbollah's terrorist acts which it has accepted responsibility for?

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hezbollah_e0706.htm

also

"The following is a chronological list of events along Israel's northern border in which Israeli civilians or soldiers were killed or wounded from May 2000 until July 12, 2006.

27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

27 Dec 2005 - A branch of a Palestinian organization connected to Al-Qaida fired 6 Katyushas, damaging a house in Kiryat Shmona and a house in Metulla. In response, the IAF attacked a training base of the Popular Front, south of Beirut.

21 Nov 2005 - An attempt to kidnap an IDF soldier was foiled when paratroopers patrolling near Rajar village discerned a Hizbullah unit approaching. Private David Markovitz opened fire, killing all four. In a heavy attack of mortars and Katyusha rockets that ensued, nine soldiers and and two civilians were injured.

29 June 2005 - More than 20 mortars were fired from across the border. Cpl. Uzi Peretz of the Golani Brigade was killed and four soldiers wounded, including the unit's doctor. Fire was exchanged and helicopters and planes attacked five Hizbullah outposts in the Reches Ramim area.

7 Apr 2005 - Two Israeli Arabs from the village of Rajar on the Israel-Lebanon border were kidnapped by Hizbullah operatives and held in captivity for four days in an attempt to obtain information on Israel.

9 Jan 2005 - An explosive device was detonated against an IDF patrol at Nahal Sion. One Israeli soldier was killed, and a UN officer was killed.

20 July 2004 - Hizbullah sniper fired at an IDF post in the western sector of the Israeli-Lebanese border. Two IDF soldiers were killed.

7 May 2004 - Fire in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Dennis Leminov was killed, and two other soldiers were severely wounded. The IDF returned fire.

19 Jan 2004 - An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF D9 while neutralizing explosive charges near Zari’t. An IDF soldier, Yan Rotzenski, was killed and another soldier was severely wounded.

6 Oct 2003 - Staff Sgt. David Solomonov was killed when Hizbullah fired at an IDF force south of the Fatma Gate in the eastern sector. In addition, the Hizbullah fired missiles and rockets at an IDF post in the Reches Ramim area.

Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hizbullah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

20 Jul 2003 - Hizbullah snipers fired on an Israeli outpost near Shtula, killing two Israeli soldiers.

7 May 2003 - Hizbullah attacked IDF positions in the Sheba farms with heavy rocket, mortar, and small arms fire. One Israeli soldier was killed and five others were wounded in the attack.

29 Aug 2002 - Fire at an IDF post in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Ofer Misali was killed, and two other soldiers were lightly wounded.

12 Mar 2002 - Infiltration: In a shooting attack on the Shlomi- Metzuba route. Six Israelis civilians were killed, among them IDF officer Lt. German Rojkov.

14 Apr 2001 - Fire at an IDF post in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Elad Litvak was killed.

16 Feb 2001- Fire at an IDF convoy on Mt. Dov. IDF soldier Elad Shneor was killed, and three other soldiers were wounded.

26 Nov 2000 - A charge was detonated near an IDF convoy. IDF soldier Khalil Taher was killed and two other soldiers were wounded.

7 Oct 2000 - Kidnapping: Three IDF soldiers: Adi Avitan, Omer Soued and Binyamin Avraham were kidnapped by the Hizballah from the Mt. Dov sector.

* * *

In addition, Hizbullah was involved in terrorist acts carried out by affiliated Palestinian terrorist cells in Israel:

28 Apr 2001 - A 60 year-old Israeli man was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hizbullah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of the organization.

1 Apr 2001 - A 42 year-old Israeli woman was stabbed to death in Haifa. Her murder was the initiation rite of a terrorist cell, whose members were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hizbullah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder, originally thought to be criminally motivated, were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of one of the terrorists into the organization.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Flubber


One of your comments I can agree with !!

I fear that for every innocent killed in lebanon you get a bunch more people that will embrace ANY measures against Israel. Many people that would be moderate may not be any longer.

Indeed! You have Christian Maronites saying "I'm Hezbollah" FFS!!!

These were the guys allied to Israel in '82!

But then if you bomb their bridges while they're on them in their own part of the country (Christian North Lebanon, where incidentally hezb don't operate from!) - what do you expect!?

Indeed, the amazing thing is the way the Israelis have brought all the different peoples of Lebanon together! But you can be guaranteed they're not grateful...

Unfortunately that will be the case until people start blaming the combatants that site themselves among innocents more than the people that fire upon them

The combatants weren't standing on the bridges, ports, airports or the power station!!!

There is only one side to blame - the side that turned a minor border skirmish into a full-blooded war aimed at destroying an innocent nation!

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Geronimo


for the record how do we know that hezbollah wants to maximise civilian casualties?

Hezbollah is following the tactic of "fire randomly into a city" rather than specific targets. If they aren't trying to maximise civilian casulties, then they at least care less than the Israelis do if any die.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by dannubis
So , perhaps a bunch of farmers should take their pitchforks and block those convoys then ...

What?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Geronimo


for the record how do we know that hezbollah wants to maximise civilian casualties?

Lebanon: Hezbollah Rocket Attacks on Haifa Designed to Kill Civilians
Anti-personnel Ball Bearings Meant to Harm “Soft” Targets
(New York, July 18, 2006) – Hezbollah's attacks in Israel on Sunday and Monday were at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians. Either way, they were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

Attacking civilian areas indiscriminately is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can constitute a war crime.

Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch


In addition, the warheads used suggest a desire to maximize harm to civilians. Some of the rockets launched against Haifa over the past two days contained hundreds of metal ball bearings that are of limited use against military targets but cause great harm to civilians and civilian property. The ball bearings lodge in the body and cause serious harm.

Hezbollah has reportedly fired more than 800 rockets into Israel from southern Lebanon over the past five days, killing 12 civilians and wounding many more. The vast majority of these rockets, as in past conflicts, have been Katyushas, which are small, have a range limited to the border area, and cannot be aimed with precision. Hezbollah has also fired some rockets in the current fighting that have landed up to 40 kilometers inside Israel.

“Attacking civilian areas indiscriminately is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can constitute a war crime,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “Hezbollah’s use of warheads that have limited military use and cause grievous suffering to the victims only makes the crime worse.”

On Monday, Human Rights Watch researchers inspected a three-story apartment building in Haifa's Bat Galim neighborhood after it was struck by a rocket around 3:00 p.m., causing extensive damage to the top two floors and wounding six residents, one of them seriously. They collected metal ball bearings that had pierced the walls of the apartment building across the street and car windshields up to one block away.



An Israeli ordinance removal expert at the scene told Human Rights Watch that the rocket used in the attack had a 240mm warhead. According to media reports, Hezbollah announced that it had fired dozens of Raad 2 and Raad 3 anti-tank missiles into Haifa in response to “aggressions against various Lebanese regions.” An Israeli military official told the press on Sunday that Hezbollah had fired at least three Syrian-made Fajr-3 missiles.

On Sunday, a Hezbollah rocket killed eight workers in Haifa’s main railway depot. Doctors who treated the wounded told Human Rights Watch that the rockets contained metal ball bearings. The ball bearings have increased the number and seriousness of injuries from rocket fire, the doctors said.

“In my medical opinion, they [these rockets] are supposed to injure as many people as possible,” said Dr. Eran Tal-Or, director of the Surgical Emergency Room at Haifa's Ramban Hospital. “If you wanted to bring down a building, you would make a weapon with a heavier blast. And you wouldn't bother with the balls inside that don't do much harm to buildings; just to people.”

Human Rights Watch interviewed three railway workers at the hospital wounded by the ball bearings in Sunday’s lethal blast.

“There were three loud booms and I started running out of the depot,” said Alek Vensbaum, 61, a worker at the Israel Train Authority. “One of the guys, Nissim, who was later killed, yelled at everyone to run to the shelter. The fourth boom got me when I was nearly at the door, and I was hit by shrapnel ... I was hit by ball bearing-like pieces of metal in my neck, hand, stomach and foot.”



Haifa apartment building hit by Hezbolah rockets. © 2006 Human Rights Watch

Sami Raz, 39, a railway electrician, said a ball bearing pierced his lung and lodged near his heart. “I had terrible difficulty breathing after I was hit,” he said.

Twelve people were wounded in the attack, four of them seriously.

[dannubis]

since they are the ones who are getting killed right now i assumed that they should have stopped those convoys.

tank man!

[Kuciwalker]

They weren't trying very hard, it seems.