The Middle East Continues...

[Sandman]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why? Were there any babv steps on the horizon toward disarming the Iranian/Syrian army that had taken over the southern half of the country that hadn't made news? If not I fail to see how it could have been valuable.

Calling Hezbollah an 'Iranian/Syrian army' is simply hyperbole. As is calling Lebanon a failed state - well, it is now.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by germanos
That sounds a bit too easy.

I'm not sure it is possible to just abandon part of your territory. Certainly not if that part has no wish to be independent (as is the case with Hezbollah: they are part of Lebanon, they are Lebanese citizens and wish not to change that status).

If Lebanon had taken such action, most likely the international community would have rejected the notion. Lebanon can't just declare part of it's territory as a lawless area without any governing body functioning. There would have been great conceirn for the area in anarchy. It would be bound to become a battleground.

Regardless of whether it would have actually worked, such a gesture by Beirut might have at least prevented Israel from punishing Lebanon-at-large today.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sandman
As is calling Lebanon a failed state - well, it is now.

What would you call it when non-state actors are making decisions about issues of war and peace for the country at large on thier own and without the permission of the central government?

Calling Hezbollah an 'Iranian/Syrian army' is simply hyperbole.

What would you call it? Who's interests are they serving? The Lebanese?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by notyoueither
The funny thing is that Mobius is quoting plagerists.

The original article can be found here, dated July 20, and apparently written by Ned Parker and Stephen Farrell (Times staff, presumably).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2277717,00.html

with a second page.

The original wording:

The Hotel housed the Mandate Secretariat as well as the Army Headquarters. On July 1946 (sic) Irgun fighters at the order of the Hebrew Resistance Movement planted explosives in the basement. Warning phone calls had been made urging the hotel’s occupants to leave immediately. For reasons known only to the British the hotel was not evacuated and after 25 minutes the bombs exploded, and to the Irgun’s regret and dismay 91 persons were killed.



The amended version

. . .Warning phone calls had been made to the hotel, the Palestine Post and the French Consulate, urging the hotel’s occupants to leave immediately.

The hotel was not evacuated, and after 25 minutes the bombs exploded. The entire western wing was destroyed, and to the Irgun’s regret 92 persons were killed.

One imagines the official policy of Mobystan is to never mention the Times.

Actually I am indebted to you for destroying Adam Smith's attempts to discredit the article by lending the credence of The Times (that well-known Rupert Murdoch paper) to my post, by finding the original story...

You see, being pushed for time I merely picked the first article I googled, checked it was basically correct and posted it. Call me lazy, but in a very satisfying way as nye leaps to my defence...! Mea Culpa

Also and quite sad really is that it appears you haven't entirely grasped what it is you are quoting...

British anger at terror celebration
By Ned Parker and Stephen Farrell
The commemoration of Israeli bombings that killing 92 people has caused offence

AS ISRAEL wages war against Hezbollah “terrorists” in Lebanon, Britain has protested about the celebration by right-wing Israelis of a Jewish “act of terrorism” against British rule 60 years ago this week.

The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine.

They have erected a plaque outside the restored building, and are holding a two-day seminar with speeches and a tour of the hotel by one of the Jewish resistance fighters involved in the attack.

Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”

In particular they demanded the removal of the plaque that pays tribute to the Irgun, the Jewish resistance branch headed by Menachem Begin, the future Prime Minister, which carried out the attack on July 22, 1946.

The plaque presents as fact the Irgun’s claim that people died because the British ignored warning calls. “For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated,” it states.

Mr McDonald and Dr Jenkins denied that the British had been warned, adding that even if they had “this does not absolve those who planted the bomb from responsibility for the deaths”. On Monday city officials agreed to remove the language deemed offensive from the blue sign hanging on the hotel’s gates, though that had not been done shortly before it was unveiled last night.

The controversy over the plaque and the two-day celebration of the bombing, sponsored by Irgun veterans and the right-wing Menachem Begin Heritage Centre, goes to the heart of the debate over the use of political violence in the Middle East. Yesterday Mr Netanyahu argued in a speech celebrating the attack that the Irgun were governed by morals, unlike fighters from groups such as Hamas.

“It’s very important to make the distinction between terror groups and freedom fighters, and between terror action and legitimate military action,” he said. “Imagine that Hamas or Hezbollah would call the military headquarters in Tel Aviv and say, ‘We have placed a bomb and we are asking you to evacuate the area’.”

But the view of the attack was very different in 1946 when The Times branded the Irgun “terrorists in disguise”. Decades later, Irgun veterans are unrepentant. Sarah Agassi, 80, remembers spying in the King David Hotel.

She and a fellow agent posed as a couple. They danced tangos and waltzes, sipped whisky and wine while they cased out the hotel.

On the day her brother and his fellow fighters posed as Arabs delivering milk and brought seven milk churns, each containing 50kg of explosives, into the building. Ms Agassi waited across the street until her brother rushed out. She said that she then made the warning call to the British command in the hotel.

Sitting in the luxurious hotel lobby, she expressed no regret. “We fought for our independence. We thought it was the right way . . . If I had to fight for Israel, I swear even now I would do anything.”

Man, you truly have shot yourself in the foot on this one! And holed AS' argument into the bargain!

All you've done is quote the two Israeli plaques, however you never mentioned to quote the current ambassador's claim that there was no warning, or that he branded them terrorists - or the fact that The Times branded Irgun terrorists...

I bet you just expected (rightly I expect, with this shower... ) everyone to be too gullible to actually click on your link and find the truth!

Israel: Guilty of attempting to rewrite history thereby justifying its terrorist roots.

Nice one NYE!!!

[MOBIUS]

You know the ironic thing is that Israel has brought this whole thing on themselves...

Just as they cinically attempted to justify their callous killing of the women and children of Qana by blaming Hizbullah for 'making them drop their bombs' - surely, is it not Olmert's fault that civilians are dying in Haifa!!?

After all, Hizb only started their mass missile launches and the targeting of Haifa after Israel launched massive and disproportionate attack against Lebanese civilian targets...

You reap the whirlwind...

[MOBIUS]

By the way, could someone remind me how Israel is doing in their fight with Hizb?

Last I heard they were getting their asses kicked!







































You know, I have a feeling this could be another one of those "I told you so" situations...

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
By the way, could someone remind me how Israel is doing in their fight with Hizb?

Last I heard they were getting their asses kicked!

Their victory is not as easy or as quick as it has been in the past, but it's still Hez that's getting its ass kicked.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Their victory is not as easy or as quick as it has been in the past, but it's still Hez that's getting its ass kicked.

Really?

I thought it was the Lebanese civilians?

There I was thinking that hizb had launched its deadliest strikes of the war only today and yesterday. Or that with each day they appear to be firing more and more missiles into Israel at further and further distances.

Oh well, shows you what I know...

[Winston]

Gallup: Danes back Israel

According to a Gallup poll conducted for Berlingske Tidende, 57% of Danes hold Hezbollah responsible for the ongoing conflict in Lebanon, while 37% point to Israel.

Further, 48% declare that they sympathize the most with Israel, while only 7%, predominantly left-wing voters, sympathize the most with Hezbollah.

Link (Danish)

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Their victory is not as easy or as quick as it has been in the past, but it's still Hez that's getting its ass kicked.

Feeding trolls.

[CrONoS]

...
Maybe they have lost their infrastructure, but I think the Hezb have won the heart and mind of Lebanese people(christian, sunni, schia).

Israel will have to fight a land war in Lebanon and for this only reason, Israel already have lost the "war".

Do you want to see Israel on world television fighting a guerilla army who are looking like civillian? Dressing like civillian, hiding in the civillian, and the civillian helping the Hezb.

The goal of Israel is to eradicate Hezb from Lebanon, the goal of Hezb is to bring Israel in Lebanon.. forcing them to fight a land war in urban territory. And for this very reason; Hebz have won the first battle.

Anyway; does anyone have good report on how Syria and Iran are helping the Hebz. I've seen on transcript of Iranian papers that the North Coreans are helping Iran to build underground tunnel and storage facility...

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Their victory is not as easy or as quick as it has been in the past, but it's still Hez that's getting its ass kicked.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Really?

I thought it was the Lebanese civilians?

There I was thinking that hizb had launched its deadliest strikes of the war only today and yesterday. Or that with each day they appear to be firing more and more missiles into Israel at further and further distances.

Yep, both Israel and Hezbollah have figured out that it's easier to kill civilians that those guys with the guns that shoot back.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Like how the American people tacitly support the actions of their government and corporations abroad, and thus deserved 9/11. You're in the same company as Ward Churchill and his "little Eichmann's" comment.

The difference being, of course, is that the Dr. Pepper company didn't fire rockets into Northern Mexico from Texas, Mexico retaliated, and the then the United States went whing to the UN when they couldn't countrol their country.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Feeding trolls.

Coming from you, that's a compliment!

It's good to see you actually have an opinion on something, instead of your usual vacuous little snipes from the wings...

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Lonestar


The difference being, of course, is that the Dr. Pepper company didn't fire rockets into Northern Mexico from Texas, Mexico retaliated, and the then the United States went whing to the UN when they couldn't countrol their country.

Although, I must now admit I would think the idea of the Dr. Pepper Company launching rocket attacks is coolness beyond all reason.