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  • #1

    Bluray vs HD-DVD: Comparison of titles in both formats...

    So not only are Bluray players twice the price as HD-DVD ones, they're worse quality allaround. This is a result of two things:
    1) Sony not being able to produce dual-layer (50GB discs) commercially
    2) Sony deciding MPEG2 (what's used in DVDs) is a more appropriate compression format than the much more advanced Microsoft VC-1 (WMV9).

    Reviews:

    Training Day: http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/trainingday.html
    Kiss Kiss Bang Bang: http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/kisskissbangbang.html
    Rumor Has It...: http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/rumorhasit.html

    Is Sony the worst company in the world at promoting new standards? Bluray was supposed to be the technologically superior format, hence it being twice the price, but through a series of dumb decisions HD-DVD is not only cheaper, but better.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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  • #2
    They're bits. Ones and zeros. A file on an HD-DVD is the same as the same file on a billion floppies. If the encoding was different, what does that have to do with the medium at all?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Kuciwalker
      They're bits. Ones and zeros. A file on an HD-DVD is the same as the same file on a billion floppies. If the encoding was different, what does that have to do with the medium at all?
      There's more than that -- there are different menu system technologies (Bluray is also blasted in the reviews for having incredibly slow menus with hourglasses), there are different "recommended" codecs, and there are different technical specifications.

      Why do you think Warner is using MPEG2 for Bluray movies instead of VC-1? Sony told Bluray makers to use MPEG2. That's "the" Bluray codec right now. VC-1 is, of course, a Microsoft codec...I guess Sony would rather not pay Microsoft royalties for each Bluray disc at the expense of quality.
      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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      • #4
        Another interesting review on the site is of U2's Rattle and Hum, encoded in MPEG4 (the first HD-DVD or Bluray title in MPEG4).

        What's interesting in that review is it mentions that MPEG4 isn't as good a codec as VC-1 in terms of quality and space used. That surprised me, as I had heard earlier they were on par with eachother. So MPEG4 is likely to be quite rare in both formats, with VC-1 expected to be the dominant format in the future.

        That has ramifications in the PC world -- Apple is a huge MPEG4 supporter [and Bluray], and Microsoft (as you may guess) is a VC-1 backer. So when/if Zune and iTunes start selling movies, there are bound to be quality differences in favor of the Zune movies.

        VC-1 is also the official Xbox 360 video codec for movie trailers and videos.
        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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        • #5
          I can understand why Sony chose MPEG-2, considering that's what's standard for broadcast HDTV and it seems like a good idea for all equipment to use MPEG-2. The business entanglements for MPEG-2 are becoming much less over time as the patents on the technology expire.

          That said, VC-1 is supposed to be a first-rate codec. In addition to the XBox 360, I think it's used in M$' IPTV platform.
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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          • #6
            Broadcast HDTV is transitioning from MPEG2 to MPEG4 or VC-1 to add more channels.

            eg: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1748991,00.asp
            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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            • #7
              Hmm. I suppose it would seem kind of odd for Sony to use Microsoft-patented technology in its Blu-ray media when Microsoft is a big backer of the rival HD-DVD format. A delicious irony, indeed, if it were to ever come to pass.

              Gatekeeper
              "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

              "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Asher
                Broadcast HDTV is transitioning from MPEG2 to MPEG4 or VC-1 to add more channels.

                eg: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1748991,00.asp
                Well, transitioning is too strong of a word. I think they are working to add VC-1 to the ATSC (i.e., broadcast) standard. I think it would be great to add it.

                FYI, the article is off point. It mentions satellite, which doesn't require a standard. The satellite carriers can use the codec and bitrate that they wish. It doesn't mention broadcast, which requires a standard.

                By the way, I have heard lots of complaints from satellite HDTV customers. I'm not sure whether it's the codec or the bitrate used, or both.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                • #9
                  Those seem like semantics specific to the US.

                  In Canada, digital cable and satellite providers can each use whichever codecs they wish...and all of them are transitioning from MPEG2 to MPEG4 or VC-1 as the hardware to decode is cheap these days.
                  "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                  Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                  • #10
                    No, ATSC is the broadcast standard in Canada too, as well as a handful of other countries.

                    I'm not talking about the cheapness of the hardware required to decode. Rather, it's the M$ tax that Sony may be trying to avoid. I don't know how much it is, but it may be up to $5 per device (I think that's what the MPEG-LA charged for each DVD device).
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                    • #11
                      I didn't know DVD movies were compressed. I tought they were like CD's. And it seems the compression formats used are lossy, am I correct? There isn't room enough in either HD-DVD or Blueray to use lossless formats?
                      Let us be lazy in everything, except in loving and drinking, except in being lazy – Lessing

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DanS
                        No, ATSC is the broadcast standard in Canada too, as well as a handful of other countries.

                        I'm not talking about the cheapness of the hardware required to decode. Rather, it's the M$ tax that Sony may be trying to avoid. I don't know how much it is, but it may be up to $5 per device (I think that's what the MPEG-LA charged for each DVD device).
                        Shaw (a cable company) was discussing MPEG4 or VC-1 as part of their strategy to add more HD channels (they currently only have 10 HD channels on MPEG2), so to me that tells me they don't have to abide by ATSC or ATSC is very close to being updated.

                        I didn't know DVD movies were compressed. I tought they were like CD's. And it seems the compression formats used are lossy, am I correct? There isn't room enough in either HD-DVD or Blueray to use lossless formats?
                        Not even close. Everything on HD-DVDs, Bluray, and DVDs are compressed.

                        High-def DVDs have resolutions of 1920x1080, which is 2073600 pixels per frame. I believe (but I'm not sure) each pixel is 32 bits, which means 66355200 bits per frame. 1080p is 60 frames per second, which means 3981 312000 bits per second (474.61 megabytes per second...).

                        For video alone (not including audio/extras), for a two hour movie, you would need about 57GB of storage space. A single-layer HD-DVD is 15GB, dual-layer is 30GB. Single-layer bluray is 25GB, dual-layer is 50GB.

                        Then you've got audio on top of that, which takes up quite a bit of space these days.
                        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                        • #13
                          It should be noted that Dolby TrueHD (which is on HD-DVD discs but not Bluray so far) is a lossless audio format.
                          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                          • #14
                            they don't have to abide by ATSC
                            No, Shaw is a cabelco and doesn't have to abide by ATSC. But many of the stations that provide content to Shaw have to abide by it. So, for instance, Shaw might reencode the MPEG-2 to VC-1.
                            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                            • #15
                              For video alone (not including audio/extras), for a two hour movie, you would need about 57GB of storage space. A single-layer HD-DVD is 15GB, dual-layer is 30GB. Single-layer bluray is 25GB, dual-layer is 50GB.
                              That's if the movie is two minutes long. If it's two *hours* long, it's 3.25 terabytes... almost half a gigabyte a second adds up to a hell of a lot very quickly .
                              This is Shireroth, and Giant Squid will brutally murder me if I ever remove this link from my signature | In the end it won't be love that saves us, it will be mathematics | So many people have this concept of God the Avenger. I see God as the ultimate sense of humor -- SlowwHand

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