Iran-Venezuela Alliance

[Kuciwalker]

Chavez met Ahmedinejad on Saturday and said his country would "stand by Iran at any time and under any condition", Iran's state-run television reported.

Doesn't that just warm your heart, che?

[Barnabas]

All that makes oil expensive is good for Chavez

[Whoha]

Chavez is going to facilitate the entry of CIA teams into Iran, this is a positive development.

[Patroklos]

because in the case of ME, american actions always mean pro-israeli actions. If You do not support Israel, it's only Israel that's angry with You. If You support Israel as You de facto do, it's not only entire Arabic and Islamic world, but also much of the western states despised

I got you, so just so we don't provoke the ire of the rest of the middle east, we should thumb our nose at the principles of democratic western civilization which is the real reason for supporting Isreal.

If we transplanted Isreal and Belgium, Belgium would have all the same problems, and we would equally support them as we do Isreal.

The simple fact is that in most cases Isreal is by far on the right side of the arguement, and the rest of the ME on the wrong.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Patroklos

If we transplanted Isreal and Belgium, Belgium would have all the same problems, and we would equally support them as we do Isreal.

Actually, a Belgium-like split should be an example for Palestine.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


actually america IS criticized by Russians and Serbs for its defense of Kosovo, and by muslims for not intervening in Kosovo sooner.

Serbia and Russia... gimme a break.
And the second thing doesn't stop Kosovars from liking You, probably, unless You've made them hate You with your ME policy already.

I got you, so just so we don't provoke the ire of the rest of the middle east, we should thumb our nose at the principles of democratic western civilization which is the real reason for supporting Isreal.

If we transplanted Isreal and Belgium, Belgium would have all the same problems, and we would equally support them as we do Isreal.

The simple fact is that in most cases Isreal is by far on the right side of the arguement, and the rest of the ME on the wrong.

If Belgium stole Arab lands, as Israel did, and acted as it does, it would have similar problems.
Yet, America wouldn't support it that much.
There aren't many disciplined Belgian voters in key states of America...

[Jimmywax]

Originally posted by Heresson
If Belgium stole Arab lands, as Israel did, and acted as it does, it would have similar problems.
Yet, America wouldn't support it that much.
There aren't many disciplined Belgian voters in key states of America...

Stole huh, if I read my history right I think the Kingdom of David dates back to 1000 B.C.E. I think that coud be a good argument for the reaquisition of territory. That's just me though. The Kingdom of Isreal actually predates anyother current nation of the region, along with any other curretn religion of the region.

There is a point in time where all of this becomes circular logic and absolutely insane. Why is Hezbollah attacking Isreal, to defend Lebanon as they say. Why is Isreal invading Lebanon, because Hezbollah was attacking them with rockets and kidnaping Isreali's. It all reminds me of an interview I saw a couple of years ago with the spokesman from the Al Aqsa martyrs brigade. He was asked what it would take for them to quit their bombings of Isreal. He stated that all it would take was Arafat asking them to. When the interviewer rebutted with the fact that Arafat had asked them to stop he stated that they can never stop. It went on like that for about five minutes.

Interviewer: "What would it take to stop"
Interviewee: " Arafat asking us to"
Interviewer: "He has asked you to stop"
Interviewee: "We can never stop"
Interviewer: "What would it take to stop"
Interviewee: " Arafat asking us to"
Interviewer: "He has asked you to stop"
Interviewee: "We can never stop"
Interviewer: "What would it take to stop"
Interviewee: " Arafat asking us to"
Interviewer: "He has asked you to stop"
Interviewee: "We can never stop"
Interviewer: "What would it take to stop"
Interviewee: " Arafat asking us to"
Interviewer: "He has asked you to stop"
Interviewee: "We can never stop"

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


Serbia and Russia... gimme a break.
And the second thing doesn't stop Kosovars from liking You, probably, unless You've made them hate You with your ME policy already.



If Belgium stole Arab lands, as Israel did, and acted as it does, it would have similar problems.
Yet, America wouldn't support it that much.
There aren't many disciplined Belgian voters in key states of America...

You dont understand American politics. Many pro-Israel congressmen come from states with few Jews.

Also, could you clarify which lands Israel "stole"? Are you referring to the Golan Heights and the West Bank, each of which Israel is quite willing to negotiate about? Or are you referring to all of Israel? Your govt (in Poland) and the govt of Belgium, and most states throughout the world recognize Israels right to exist. The notion that Israels very existence is an act of theft is no basis for peace, and is rejected by Americans in general.

[atawa]

Originally posted by Patroklos
The simple fact is that in most cases Isreal is by far on the right side of the arguement, and the rest of the ME on the wrong.

[Heresson]

Stole huh, if I read my history right I think the Kingdom of David dates back to 1000 B.C.E. I think that coud be a good argument for the reaquisition of territory. That's just me though. The Kingdom of Isreal actually predates anyother current nation of the region, along with any other curretn religion of the region.

There was almost 2 millenia pause in Jewish presence in this land on a bigger scale.
Their claims towards this land had hardly any ethnic or historical base.
It's like the Welsh or Irish claimed half of Europe because their Celtic ancestors once lived
there.

There is a point in time where all of this becomes circular logic and absolutely insane. Why is Hezbollah attacking Isreal, to defend Lebanon as they say. Why is Isreal invading Lebanon, because Hezbollah was attacking them with rockets and kidnaping Isreali's. It all reminds me of an interview I saw a couple of years ago with the spokesman from the Al Aqsa martyrs brigade. He was asked what it would take for them to quit their bombings of Isreal. He stated that all it would take was Arafat asking them to. When the interviewer rebutted with the fact that Arafat had asked them to stop he stated that they can never stop. It went on like that for about five minutes.

Interviewer: "What would it take to stop"
Interviewee: " Arafat asking us to"
Interviewer: "He has asked you to stop"
Interviewee: "We can never stop"

but it's also the case of Israel.
It makes overexagerrated responces to attacks on itself that just cause another attacks.

Originally posted by lord of the mark



You dont understand American politics. Many pro-Israel congressmen come from states with few Jews.

But their parties have candidates in other states as well, don't they.

Also, could you clarify which lands Israel "stole"? Are you referring to the Golan Heights and the West Bank, each of which Israel is quite willing to negotiate about? Or are you referring to all of Israel? Your govt (in Poland) and the govt of Belgium, and most states throughout the world recognize Israels right to exist. The notion that Israels very existence is an act of theft is no basis for peace, and is rejected by Americans in general.

I clariefied my position many times. The creation of Israel was a robbery of arabic lands. I haven't heard of another state which was founded by 1-st generation immigrants. Yet, it's too late to change that. When it comes to Golan, Israel didn't want to return all of it.
The same comes to a tiny shreds of Palestine that it hasn't yet annected.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Heresson
I haven't heard of another state which was founded by 1-st generation immigrants.

Liberia pops to mind.

[Heresson]

ah, forgot about that. Also connected with USA... anyway, gimme more.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Liberia pops to mind.

Certainly the example of a stunning success

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Heresson

There was almost 2 millenia pause in Jewish presence in this land on a bigger scale.

The gap in Jewish SOVEREIGNTY extended from the Bar Kohba revolt to 1948, 1800 years. There was an extensive Jewish presence after the Bar Kohba revolt. There were Jewish majorities in several cities, and there was still an extensive presence of Jewish farmers in the north untill circa 900CE. The Jerusalem Talmud was completed in the land of Israel circa 400 to 500 CE, and the Masoretic texts of the bible were completed there circa 900CE.

The Jewish community of Jerusalem was destroyed in the first crusade. There was, nonetheless a Jewish presence in Acco, etc during the crusader period. Shortly thereafter Jews moved to Israel from the diaspora, including Rabbi Nachmanides, who had been expelled from Aragon. In the 1500's almost 10,000 mainly Spanish Jews moved there, creating Jewish majorities in Tiberias, Tzfat, and Jerusalem. The community was the home of Isaac Luria and other mystics, whose mystic approach to Judaism was influential throughout the Jewish world.


[{q]Their claims towards this land had hardly any ethnic or historical base.
It's like the Welsh or Irish claimed half of Europe because their Celtic ancestors once lived
there.[/q]

The Irish have an independent state. If Israel can have an independent state, they can give up their claims to Judea and Samaria.

I clariefied my position many times. The creation of Israel was a robbery of arabic lands. I haven't heard of another state which was founded by 1-st generation immigrants. Yet, it's too late to change that.

You may have clarified your position in the past, but you confuse the issue each time you refer to robbery of lands without specifiying which you are talking about.

when it comes to Golan, Israel didn't want to return all of it.

There is a dispute about certain lands along the Sea of Gallilee that Israel claims are not Syrian - this is a dispute referring back to the 1949 armistice lines. The amount of land is trivial compared to the entire extent of the Golan Heights. In any case, Hafez Assad refused to concede a full peace.

The same comes to a tiny shreds of Palestine that it hasn't yet annected.

The only area conquered from Jordan in 1967 that Israel DID annex was Jerusalem. Israel at Camp David and Taba offered to withdraw from 95% of the West Bank.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson
ah, forgot about that. Also connected with USA... anyway, gimme more.

At least some founders of the United States were first generation immigrants - john Witherspoon, a signer of the Declaration was born in Scotland.

according the national park service, 8 of the 56 signers were foreign born:
Button Gwinnett, Francis Lewis, Robert Morris, James Smith, George Taylor, Matthew Thornton, James Wilson, and John Witherspoon