What do you know about Sunni & Shia

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Lancer


Since I don't particularly like the Iranian regime either, I'm glad we have something in common with the arabs.

Well, me too.

The thing is, it's really not the Shia as a group that are the problem, but rather the fact that many of their leaders are actively fueling their fears and preaching hatred in order to make them more "useful" for their own political purposes.

Actually, there are many Shia who also don't like the Iranian regime too much, and since Iran is mainly Shia in the first place, those are the people we need the most if we hope to do anything good in the long run.

[Lancer]

Fifth column, better and better.

[Spiffor]

The Shia have a more structurated religion, with a religious hierarchy that reminds Catholicism (though it doesn't manage to be as centralized). Sunni Islam is decentralized like protestantism.

The Shia religion is much more doomsday than Islam, as they believe the "12th Imam" will come back to Earth one day, and it will be judgement day. Basically, the 12th Imam is the 12th person in the royal line of Mohammed's (the royal line that is supported by the Shia).

Martyr-worship is more significant in Shia Islam than in Sunni Islam

[Guardian]

The main difference between the Shia and the Sunni is that the Sunni are traditonally the more "democratic" ones, electing their leaders and maintaining troughout history that leadership of the community is not a birthright, but a trust that is earned and which may be given or taken away by the people themselves. (The Sunnis actually came up with this almost a thousand years before Thomas Jefferson & Co. )

The Shia, on the other hand, believe that leadership should have stayed with Muhammad's heir. Throughout history, Shia Muslims have not recognized the authority of elected Muslim leaders, choosing instead to follow a line of Imams which they believe have been appointed by the Prophet Muhammad or God Himself.

Shia Muslims believe that the Imam is sinless by nature, and that his authority is infallible as it comes directly from God.

To Sunni Muslims, on the other hand, the Imam is just someone they elected for the job. He's a mortal man and he has his flaws, just like anybody else.

Sunni Muslims make up the majority (85%) of Muslims all over the world. Significant populations of Shia Muslims can be found in Iran and Iraq, and large minority communities in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, and Lebanon.

More details can be found here:

What's the Difference Between Shia and Sunni Muslims?
http://islam.about.com/cs/divisions/f/shia_sunni.htm

(Same link cronos_qc posted.)

[Spiffor]

There's a big difference between what a Sunni calls an Imam, and what a Shia calls an Imam.

The Sunni Imam is the guy who performs religious services. It is a pretty mundane word, for a noble but common task. There are hundreds of thousands Sunni Imams in the world.

The Shiite Imam is the direct heir of Mohammed. There was a line of 11 Imams that ruled over the Shia, and the 12th Imam has disappeared from the Earth. He shall come back, at the end of times. In the meantime, no government is really legitimate (because the only legitimate power is that of the Imam, as it comes directly from God), but mankind has to make do.
There is currently zero Shiite Imam on earth, and there will be only one until the end of times occur.

[aneeshm]

Shia Islam is also more of a religion of defeat . It carries with it the Persian sense of defeat against the Arabs , the defeat of the Persian culture and religion by Islam , and , as an expression of these , the defeat of the rightful heir of the Prophet . That is why lots of people in Iran come out every year to indulge in masochistic self-punishment ( because they consider themselves responsible for the defeat of Ali , and are punishing themselves for it ) , whipping themselves , and using spiked instruments until they draw blood . The processions on the street are a gory sight .

[molly bloom]

Re: What do you know about Sunni & Shia

Originally posted by Lancer
I know they split after the demise of the comedy hour...

Sunni:

Sunni, yesterday my life was filled with rain
Sunni, you smiled at me and really eased the pain
Oh, the dark days are done
The bright days are here
My Sunni one shines so sincere
Sunni one so true
I love you

Sunni, thank you for that sunshine bouquet
Sunni, thank you for the love you brought my way
You gave to me your all and all
Now I feel ten feet tall
Sunni one so true
I love you

Sunni, thank you for the truth you let me see
Sunni, thank you for the facts from a to z
My life was torn like windblown sand
And then a rock was formed when we held hands
Sunni one so true
I love you

Sunni, thank for that smile upon your face
Sunni, thank you for that gleam that flows with grace
Youre my spark of natures fire
Youre my sweet complete desire
Sunni one so true
I love you

Sunni, yesterday my life was filled with rain
Sunni, you smiled at me and really eased the pain
The dark days are done
The bright days are here
My Sunni one shines so sincere
Sunni one so true
Sunni one so true
Sunni one so true
I love you


Shia:

Shia may be the face I can't forget
The trace of pleasure or regret
Maybe my treasure or the price I have to pay
Shia may be the song that summer sings
May be the chill that autumn brings
May be a hundred different things
Within the measure of a day

Shia may be the beauty or the beast
May be the famine or the feast
May turn each day into a Heaven or a Hell
Shia may be the mirror of my dreams
A smile reflected in a stream
Shia may not be what Shia may seem
Inside their shell....

Shia, who always seem so happy in a crowd
Whose eyes can be so private and so proud
No one's allowed to see them when they cry
Shia may be the love that cannot hope to last
May come to me from shadows in the past
That I remember 'till the day I die

Shia maybe the reason I survive
The why and wherefore I'm alive
The ones I care for through the rough and ready years

Me, I'll take the laughter and their tears
And make them all my souvenirs
For where Shia goes I've got to be
The meaning of my life is
Shia....Shia
Oh, Shia....


There. Vive la difference...

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by aneeshm
because they consider themselves responsible for the defeat of Ali

Hmm, interesting. I'd blame Frazier for the defeat of Ali, personally...

[Lancer]

molly, somehow that's disturbing...

Regarding the division of Islam, the Sunnis have the numerical superiority, and are the more moderate, so that's good.

Why can't they win the civil war in Iraq?

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Lancer
molly, somehow that's disturbing...

Regarding the division of Islam, the Sunnis have the numerical superiority, and are the more moderate, so that's good.

Why can't they win the civil war in Iraq?

(1) Shias make up about 60% of the Iraqi population.
(2) The Shia Iraqis are next door to Shia Iran, who'll feed them arms and men.
(3) Most of Iraq's oil is in the Shia south.
(4) The Iraqi Sunnis are divided between the Sunni Arabs, and the Sunni Kurds, and--because of centuries of oppression--the Kurds hate the Arabs.

[lord of the mark]

the religious differences are not necessarily key to understanding the political relations. To a considerable degree religion in the region (not unlike in the west) serves as a marker of ethnic identity.

The most important fact, is that in the lands of the former Ottoman empire, Sunnis were the established ruling class, and Shia were oppressed. This has led to largescale Shia resentment, and in some cases radicalism.

In Lebanon, where the post-independence state was dominated by francophile Maronite Christians, who were pro-Western (this was back when France and US were unabashedly on the same side) and who were "soft" on Israel, the Shia tend to be anti-western and anti-Israel. In Iraq, where, from the early '60s to 2003, the oppressive Sunni regime was pan-Arab nationalist, radical, and USUALLY antiwestern, the Shia establishment, and much of the population is kinda sorta friendly to the US - though naturally skeptical, given that we left them in the lurch when they rebelled in 1991. In Iraq there is internal division among the Shia, with the urban poor leaning more to the pro-Iranian positions of Sadr, while the rural population, and the traditional leaders in the shrine citiies (Sistanti) want to weaken Sadr.

[Heresson]

I am too lazy to explain it fully.
Shia-sunni-kharigite division comes from times of beginning of islam.
After death of Muhammad, it was decided that his successor (caliph) will be elected by muslims. But some claimed that it's family ties that count, and supported the rights of Ali bn Abu Talib, cousin of Muhammad and husband of his daughter, Fatima.
Still, Abu Bakr was elected, and after him 'Umar.
After 'Umar, 'Uthman was elected. He was one of an influencial family, also related to Muhammad, but not closely. His family used to fight islam most fiercely.
'uthman started his nepotic rule. he used to fire gouvernors and give offices to members of his family.
This and other deeds of his coused an opposition.
A couple of soldiers came from Egypt to him to demand change of his politics. He agreed, but when they went away, he changed his mind. they returned and killed him. they say he was just reading Al-Qur'an, for he was the one who was responsible for creation of one legal version of it and destroying others.
After death of 'Uthman, 'Ali was elected.
But he was accused of being involved in assassination of the previous caliph, so Mu'awiya, a relative of 'Uthman and the gouvernor of Syria, revolted against him. Eventually they agreed on mediation, which made some of his supporters separate from him and form kharigite (the ones that go out/rebels) sect. Some of the kharigites were extremly radical, they were simply killing ANYONE who did not agree with them. In result they were exterminated themselves. Of four branches of kharigites, only the most mild one exists till today. 'Ali chose his representative unwisely, and lost. Mu'awiya became the caliph, and reign of 'Umayyad dinasty that ruled from Damascus (the capital of 'Ali was Al-Kufa) started. Ali was soon assassinated.
Still, shiites ("the followers (of Ali)") carried on.
They claimed the imamate for his son, and when he was bought by Mu'awiya, for the other one.
Anyway, one of Ali's sons, Al-Husayn, revolted, and eventually was defeated, and his head cut off and sent to Damascus, and later to Egypt. Shiites still come and kiss the place the head was put on here, in Damascus.
Shiites carried on and stuff.
Long story.,

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Shia Islam is also more of a religion of defeat .

Is it ?


The Shi'ite Safavids of Iran under Shah Abbas the Great defeated the Sunni Ottoman Turks, regaining the Shi'ite holy cities of Najaf and Kerbala. They took back Kandahar from the Sunni Moghul Empire.

They defeated the Sunni Uzbeks in Central Asia. They defeated the Sunni Arabs of southern Arabia and the Portuguese.

Shah Abbas created a great new capital city for the Safavids in Isfahan, engaged in trade with the French and Dutch and English, impressing them all with the sophistication and high culture of Isfahan. You can find the impressive Nagsh-i Jahan Square there, one of the world's largest city squares.


The Shi'ite Fatimids of Egypt also had quite a good run for their money too, defeating the Abbasids. They founded the victorious city, Al Qahaira/Cairo to celebrate their victory. They even managed to capture Islam's second capital, Damascus.

That is why lots of people in Iran come out every year to indulge in masochistic self-punishment ( because they consider themselves responsible for the defeat of Ali , and are punishing themselves for it ) , whipping themselves , and using spiked instruments until they draw blood . The processions on the street are a gory sight .

Hindu devotees are so much more decorous with their religious enthusiasm, aren't they ?

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Guardian
The main difference between the Shia and the Sunni is that the Sunni are traditonally the more "democratic" ones, electing their leaders and maintaining troughout history that leadership of the community is not a birthright, but a trust that is earned and which may be given or taken away by the people themselves. (The Sunnis actually came up with this almost a thousand years before Thomas Jefferson & Co. )

Eh, I think that was more in theory than in practice...

[Heresson]

very much in theory. Only first 4 caliph were elected anyway.

Originally posted by molly bloom
They even managed to capture Islam's second capital, Damascus.

third. The second, under Ali, was Al-Kufa. You'd know that if You read my first post in this thread.

But You are, of course, right. At the end of X century, North Africa, Egypt, Great Syria, Iraq, Iran and some other parts of muslim world were under shiite rule.
bah, sunni caliph was in the hands of shiite rulers.

The defeat and death of Al-Husayn is the central part of shia culture, though.