8 canadians killed in south lebanon.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MRT144
are there really 40k canadians in lebobomb?

A lot of refugees from the civil war settled in Canada. Many spend time both in Canada and Lebanon. Some moved back when things settled down. Others have encouraged tourism as friends of theirs want to visit friends in a beautiful country with nice climate (tourists).

40K surprised me, but it is not unbelievable.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by PLATO
So I suppose you ju8st want year after year after year people to keep dying? As long as the number is proportionate?

Could you please remind me how many Israelis the hezbollah has killed in recent years (say, since the evacuation of South Lebanon by Israeli forces), before this whole mess?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Gibsie
I wonder if the Canadian Prime Minister's going to be re-iterating his absolyte support for Israel's military tactics after this horrible event?

When did he do that?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Could you please remind me how many Israelis the hezbollah has killed in recent years (say, since the evacuation of South Lebanon by Israeli forces), before this whole mess?

While I'll definately not attack the poster, I will say that that is the stupidist post I have ever seen. What? You are trying to imply that Hizbollah has just been a peaceful little neighbor? Sure...that's why they still support the destruction of Israel, acquired over 11000 rockets and put them on the Israeli boarder...that's why the state that sponsor's them has called for Israel's destruction.

This is the status quo you support? Get off the altruistic idealogical soapbox that you are on and realize that these people are the problem and that eventually they would have to be dealt with. Why let the death continue for years until an inevitable blowup? The IDF is long overdue on what they say they are doing.

Their are only two solutions here...the destruction of the terrorist and/or their sponsor states or the the destruction of Israel. To believe that the islamic terrorist will accept a peaceful outcome that allows Israel to remain is to deny well over 30 years of history(actually...nearly 60 years of history).

It is idiotic to continue to call for a constant state of low level war. Let the issue be decided so that the next generation will not have to live with this crap.

Again, please let me emphasize how incredibly stupid the quoted question (again...not the poster...just the post)is to me. It reeks of niave idealism.

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by notyoueither


When did he do that?

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/07/14/harper-blair.html

This is another example of "measured self-defence", to be precise...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by PLATO
While I'll definately not attack the poster, I will say that that is the stupidist post I have ever seen. What? You are trying to imply that Hizbollah has just been a peaceful little neighbor?

1. You're talking about "year after year, people [keeping] dying". Since your argument seems to be based on the death toll, I don't find it stupid to wonder the extent of these deaths that pile up year after year.

2. No, The Hezbollah isn't a peacful neighbour. It's a guerilla made of local Shias, supported by local Shias, and that has patronage by the Iranian and Syrian government. What the hezbollah isn't, however, is an Iranian regiment posted in Lebanon.
Let me get this straight: the Hezbollah undoubtedly gets its weapons from Iran, and most probably gets order from Iran (though it would be interesting to know the extent of autonomy in the Hezbollah's command). But it's not manned by the Iranians, and the land on which they operate aren't under the control of the Iranian government. As such, the existence of the Hezbollah depends much more on the domestic conditions in Lebanon than, say, an American base located in South Korea.

This is why strength is not the only possible answer to the Hezbollah. Political finesse could be an answer too. An answer the Lebanese government has been recently trying.
One year ago (a short timespan!), Lebanon finally got an anti-Syrian government, and the Syrian troops were kicked out a bare 6 monthes ago. The new government doesn't like Hezbollah one bit, but understandably doesn't want to risk another civil war.
As a result, the new Lebanese government has adopted a "soft" approach to dealing with the Hezbollah. They let it enter the mainstream. Their calls for disarmament, while unanswered, haven't sparked any major political crisis (the electoral alliances of convenience with the Hezb have been broken, big deal).

If the Lebanese can live in safety, prosperity, and without fear of Israeli attacks, the hezbollah claims of resistance will become quite empty. And the "solidarity with the Palestinians" meme won't exactly be as convincing as factions that support said peace and prosperity The Hezbollah, being a resistance movement, stands to lose everything with a long-lasting peace.

This is the status quo you support? Get off the altruistic idealogical soapbox that you are on and realize that these people are the problem and that eventually they would have to be dealt with.

Yes. And I think that "dealing with them" involves politics. Not killing dozens of innocents (which is the very optimistic estimate: this **** is due to continue for days, weeks, or possibly monthes).
I'm strengthened in my belief by the fact that IRA has stopped fighting after a political deal. By the fact that ETA's weakening didn't come from the death-squadrons, but from the political situation in Spain and the Basque country. By the fact that Hezbollah has existed for decades, and survived Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon very well.

Funny that, come to think of it, I can't think of any large terrorist group that has ceased to exist by using only force. But of course, political solutions include dealing with your enemy, and it would be seen as a national humiliation if Olmert did that. This hardline stance sure has done Israel a lot of good in history .

Their are only two solutions here...the destruction of the terrorist and/or their sponsor states or the the destruction of Israel. To believe that the islamic terrorist will accept a peaceful outcome that allows Israel to remain is to deny well over 30 years of history(actually...nearly 60 years of history).

What kind of **** is this?!
*calming down*
Do you realize what you wrote? According to you, the only solutions are either the destruction of Israel, or the destruction of Iran/Syria (cause these terrorist groups will just resurrect as long as the sponsor states are there anyway).
Do you realise that you just supported the destruction of two countries whose combined population is 89 million?!

This idea is so horribly absurd. Please tell me: how come the Egyptians and Jordanians managed to stop calling for the destruction of Israel? Sure, they have been beaten militarily, but their countries weren't "destroyed", nor were their regimes. And they sure as heck hated Israel a few decades ago.
How come the PLO officially acknowledges Israel's right to exist? How come the leader of the Fatah put much political pressure for the Hamas to accept the idea as well? And the PLO used terror attacks extensively, back in the day.

In short: do you understand that political entities can change their minds? And that it doesn't take a total annihilation to reach that goal?

Again, please let me emphasize how incredibly stupid the quoted question (again...not the poster...just the post)is to me. It reeks of niave idealism.

To me, your post reeks of naive "realism". The belief that force is the only answer is not only extremely dangerous, it is also extremely simplistic.

And this is the belief that killed those eight Canadians.

Edit: corrected Syria/Iran's population.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Gibsie
I wonder if the Canadian Prime Minister's going to be re-iterating his absolyte support for Israel's military tactics after this horrible event?

Originally posted by Gibsie

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/07/14/harper-blair.html

This is another example of "measured self-defence", to be precise...

Nice spin on something Harper never said.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by notyoueither
People get killed in wars, Spiff.

There are a lot of people with Canadian citizenship who came here from Lebanon and then went back either short term or long term. It's also a popular tourist spot.

It's unfortunate, but is it really significant that these were 8 Canadians and not 8 Lebanese?

The kidnapped are 2 (two) Israelis. And they are soldiers, legitimate targets, able to defend themselves. The killed are hundreds, and soon thousands, of innocent civilians of various nations, mostly Lebanese, which had nothing to do with the situation.

Israel is allowed to defend itself, but so far it hasn't. Be careful where you shoot, STUPID IDIOTS!!!!!!!

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Nice spin on something Harper never said.

I'm only going by what I read, but then I suppose to you, speaking the truth is some kind of dirty spin. Unless that article is lying, in which case I'd like to see it discredited. Or maybe I'm mis-reading- do you think that article is saying that Harper does not support Israel's actions?

(NB "absolute support" was based on his referring to Israel as using measured self-defence whilst laying blame on Palestinians. That's the kind of support I see from Israeli posters here, and it's fair to say such support is absolute, is it not?)

[Sandman]

Netanyahu appeared on TV insisting that all this was normal as can be. That the UK, France, US would react in the same way.

Not really. Normal countries would probably have tried a bit of sabre-rattling first, some diplomacy perhaps, going to the UN, before embarking on a military campaign guaranteed to cause mayhem for years to come.

Imagine if Britain had blockaded and bombed Ireland in response to the IRA.

[Dinner]

I continue to believe that Israel is virtually blameless in this and that the people who caused this war are the terrorist who killed 6 Israeli soldiers and took another two hostage.

If Hamas was not a bunch of subhuman barbarians devoted to terrorism and the murder of innocent civilians then this would not be necissary.

[Chemical Ollie]

Oerdin, how does the killing of innocent civilians by terrorists motivate killing other innocent civilians as a response? If Israel sent special forces to liberate the hostages, one would understand, but the current situation is just crazy.

Hizbollah are well-known terrorists, so who are surprised if they kill and kidnap? Israel claim to be a democracy, but after all this, it's really doubtful. And how is Hamas active in Lebanon?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Gibsie


I'm only going by what I read, but then I suppose to you, speaking the truth is some kind of dirty spin. Unless that article is lying, in which case I'd like to see it discredited. Or maybe I'm mis-reading- do you think that article is saying that Harper does not support Israel's actions?

(NB "absolute support" was based on his referring to Israel as using measured self-defence whilst laying blame on Palestinians. That's the kind of support I see from Israeli posters here, and it's fair to say such support is absolute, is it not?)

His statement, made on Friday, was not an endorsement of whatever tactics the Israeli's might employ.

As of today, Harper joined with the rest of the G8 in calling for a cease fire, the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza and Lebanon, and the release of the 3 soldiers as well as the Hamas politicians siezed by Israel. So, does that answer your original question?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Oerdin, how does the killing of innocent civilians by terrorists motivate killing other innocent civilians as a response? If Israel sent special forces to liberate the hostages, one would understand, but the current situation is just crazy.

Hizbollah are well-known terrorists, so who are surprised if they kill and kidnap? Israel claim to be a democracy, but after all this, it's really doubtful. And how is Hamas active in Lebanon?

Hezbollah have been acknowledged as the Army of South Lebanon by Lebanese governments.

Hezbollah has two of its members serving as ministers in the current government.

When Hezbollah attacked the IDF, as they have done in the past, it was an act of war by one state upon another. I can't blame Israel for replying.

[notyoueither]

Oh, and they (Hezbollah) have lent material and financial aid to Hamas for attacks against Israel.