Interesting Paradox - Palestinians and Iraqis

[Berzerker]

Some people have been telling us Palestinians support Hamas and Hezbollah, so "colateral damage" involving civilians has been dismissed by "collective guilt". Pressed for proof, I've been told opinion polls show overwhelming support for these organisations and the recent election is cited.

When we invaded Iraq, it was to liberate the Iraqi people. They were not the enemy, the ruling power was the enemy. But Saddam won elections with 90+ percent of the voters... If opinion polls are how we know Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas and Hezbollah, why dont elections overwhelmingly won by Saddam indict the Iraqi people with this collective guilt?

Ah, because we know Saddam was an evil dude and people who opposed him could get killed. So does that mean Hamas and Hezbollah dont bother Palestinians who oppose them? How valid is an opinion poll or an election within a population terrorised by both Palestinians and Israelis?

[snoopy369]

Saddam (presumably) actually controlled the elections via intimidation and/or candidate selection. The Palestinian elections were not controlled to nearly this degree, although some intimidation undoubtedly occurred. However, Saddam controlled the press and a much larger military, and actually controlled the election mechanism. The Palestinian Authority's election mechanism was controlled if by anyone, the losers of that election [the PA's president is still a member of the opposing party].

That said, I'm not one who would argue that killing civilians is *ever* okay.

[Spiffor]

Simple: Hamas doesn't terrorize its domestic population nearly as much as Saddam.

The existence of another powerful faction called Fatah (nearly as powerful, brutality wise) in Palestine prevents it. And so does the presence of several minor factions.

This is very different from Iraq, where Saddam had almost full control over his population, except for Kurdistan's post 1991.

[Dinner]

Nuke them all from orbit. It is the only way to be sure.

[Berzerker]

hmm...if I was a Palestinian I'd be singing whatever tune accompanied approaching soldiers like the old guy running the river crossing in The Outlaw Josey Wales whistling Dixie one minute and Old Glory the next.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Berzerker
hmm...if I was a Palestinian I'd be singing whatever tune accompanied approaching soldiers like the old guy running the river crossing in The Outlaw Josey Wales whistling Dixie one minute and Old Glory the next.

Probably, but this is irrelevant to elections with secret ballots.

[chequita guevara]

Hamas is exceedingly popular because for thirty years, they've been the largest charity organization in the OTs. That's how they started, and they recieved funding from the Israelis because of that (mainly because Israel was hoping that a conservative, Islamic group would diminish the influence of the socialist and nationalist PLO) . During the 1st Intafada, they developed a military arm, for which they are more well known in the West.

I expect that in Iraq today, Hussein is more popular than he ever was during his reign. More and more people are looking back to the good old days of the Hussein regime, when they had electricity, jobs, weren't being slaughtered like flies, etc.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

I expect that in Iraq today, Hussein is more popular than he ever was during his reign. More and more people are looking back to the good old days of the Hussein regime, when they had electricity, jobs, weren't being slaughtered like flies, etc.

And torture chambers, secret police, mass gassing and ethnic cleansing and war against their Arab brothers.


Aaahh, the good old days.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by molly bloom


And torture chambers, secret police, mass gassing and ethnic cleansing and war against their Arab brothers.


Aaahh, the good old days.

I don't think there's any shortage of torture, 'secret police' and ethnic wars anywhere in the middle east today.

[Berzerker]

Probably, but this is irrelevant to elections with secret ballots.

if the baddies in control want to know who you voted for, no ballot is secret...

[Vince278]

Paradox? They're a pair of idiots. (sorry about the pun )

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Berzerker
if the baddies in control want to know who you voted for, no ballot is secret...

Yes, Hamas will just open the envelopes, and then test the fingerprints or DNA signature using their datafiles that store biometric information of the whole population...

[Proteus_MST]

Look for example at the DDR (German democratic republic).
Till the end the SED (the ruling party of the DDR) won evry election with more than 95% of the votes (and around 70-80% percentage of voting).

But as the peaceful revolution showed, these result were not based on reality, but rather on things like election fraud and intimidating the people to vote for the SED

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Look for example at the DDR (German democratic republic).

I think I've heard about it.

Wasn't it a totalitarian country, where the state had spies everywhere, had full control over one's education, economic life, and all non-family activities?

Wasn't also this thread about Hamas?

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I think I've heard about it.

Wasn't it a totalitarian country, where the state had spies everywhere, had full control over one's education, economic life, and all non-family activities?

Wasn't also this thread about Hamas?

It was about Hamas and Saddam.

And the DDR could be compared to Saddams Regime, democratic insofar as there were free elections,
but in reality totalitarian, as the ruling party would do everything to make it look as if the election was a success.
(as well as, just like within the DDR, Saddam had its spies among the population)

Wouldn´t compare the situation in palestine to the situation in former Iraq and DDR, as just like other posters within the thread mentioned, it is different.