Israel invades Lebanon after new capturing of soldiers

[muxec]

Spiffor, Israel does not want enemy civilian casualties. Really. And do not forget, that bombs are expensive.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Afghanistan.

Chechnya.

Oh yeah, sure, there aren't any more trading grounds for Islamist mujahideens in Afghanistan. Nosirree. The anarchy in warlordland definitely isn't conducive to that, and nither is the Taliban-controlled land.

As to Chechnya, let's have a look at the Chechen-related terrorist attacks since the military operations began in 1994. (From Wikipedia)


1995
June 14—June 19: Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis, 105 civilians and 25 Russian troops were killed.

1996
January: In Kizlyar, 350 Chechen militants took 3,000 hostages in a hospital. The attempt to free them kills 65 civilians and soldiers.
[the first Chechen war ends here]

1999
August 31 – September 22: Russian Apartment Bombings kills about 300 people, leading Russia into Second Chechen War.

2001
February 5: A bomb blast in Moscow's Byelorusskaya metro station injures 15 people.
March 24: Twenty people die and 93 are injured in three bomb attacks on Russian towns near the border of Chechnya.

2002
May 9: A bomb explosion in Kaspiisk in Dagestan kills at least 42 people and injures 130 or more during Victory Day festivities.
October 19: A car bomb explodes outside a McDonald's Corp. restaurant in Moscow, killing one person and wounding five.
October 23: Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue three days later.
December 27: The truck bombing of the Chechen parliament in Grozny kills 83 people.

2003
May 12: A truck bomb attack on a government building in the Chechen town of Znamenskoye kills 59.
May 14: As many as 16 die in a suicide bombing at a religious festival in southeastern Chechnya.
July 5: 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow.
August 1: An explosion at the Russian hospital in Mozdok in North Ossetia kills at least 50 people and injures 76.
September 3: A bomb blast on a passenger train near Kislovodsk in southern Russia kills seven people and injures 90.
December 5: Suicide bombers kill at least 46 people in an attack on a train in southern Russia
December 9: A blast in the center of Moscow kills six people and wounds at least 11.

2004
February 6: Bomb on Moscow Metro kills 41.
August 24: Russian airplane bombings kill 90.
August 31: A blast near a subway station entrance in northern Moscow, caused by a suicide bomber, kills 10 people and injures 33.
September 1 – 3: Beslan school hostage crisis in North Ossetia, Russia, results in 344 dead.

And I'm only counting terrorism. The Russians also continue to lose soldiers there. The most recent successful attack on Russian soldier dates back to July 4th.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by muxec
Spiffor, Israel does not want enemy civilian casualties. Really. And do not forget, that bombs are expensive.

Israel may be not happy with enemy civilian casualties (though these attacks killed 30 civilians, including children), but Israel has no problem at all with putting the same civilian in economic dire straits.

For example, I have yet to hear ONE Israeli on these boards saying that destroying half the power supply of Gaza was maybe a bad idea.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Spiff, what kind of commie are you? These people fight for survival in a land full of maniacs.

Indeed, and 30 of them have just died in the past hours

[Ecthy]

Because it wasn't a bad idea. You fail to see how relative your normative position is. Not everyone is an anti-semitist lefty

[Ecthy]

You should be aware those 30 deadare not the fault of Israel, but of their own governments. Twister.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Go Israel ! Terrorists and terrorist supporters deserve whatever's coming to them . At least one country has the guts do what is necessary to bring terrorism to an end - inflict unacceptable casualties on terrorist supporting nations and nations the terrorists hold dear . In my opinion , the US and Israel should declare straightaway that if there is a WMD terrorist attack on America or Israel , Mecca and Medina get glassed . That'll convince the terrorists that you don't mess with da Joos or Uncle Sam .

IMHO it doesn´t end terrorism.
Rather lays the foundation for new terrorists being recruited,
as it is bad PR for Israel (and therefore helps the terrorists).
Let´s for example say, you are a muslim and don´t have something to do with terrorism.
Then suddenly Israel bombards a district where your wife works or lives and kills her as well as a lot of your friends, just because somewhere else some israel soldiers were kidnapped.
Who would you, as a man who lost his wife and friends due to the attack, blame? The terrorists or the Israel forces?
Somehow I doubt that many people will say "the terrorists", but will rather be angry at israel (perhaps angry enough to, from this point on, directly or indirectly support the terrorists).

If you want to win the war you can only do this one way:
1. Invade all states which support or tolerate terrorists within their territory and erect police states under your direct control there, with a strong military presence and almost no civil libertys, but a lot of control on what´s going on there.
2. Invade all states which are pissed off (because in 1. you invaded their neighbors) and erect police states there with almost no civil liberties to catch all the terorists which feld the countries invaded in 1. (and all terrorists who got terrorists because in 2. you invaded their country)

Half hearted strikes against civilian airports and other civilian targets don´t do anything to end terrorism.
They just play into the hands of the terrorists, as it gives them new recruits

IMHO the current situation is a lose - lose situation for Israel.
Either they negotiate with the terrorists, showing them that kidnapping is a proper means to free their comrades.
Or they do nothing, which would piss off the israel military and probably the population, as it would seem like "abandoning their boys"
Or they do what they have done, i.e. using military means to invade the country where the terrorists are located.This would piss off the neighboring muslim states and give the terrorists new means for propaganda against israel and will probably lead to more recruits for terrorist groups worldwide (especially after bombing the airport).

Of course there would be a fourth possibility, i.e. using a limited command operation to free the hostages and kill the terrorists who held them captive. But to do this Israel would have to know where they are (which Israel obviously doesn´t know )

Therefore, be it one way or the other, in this situation IMHO the terrorists win.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ecthy
You should be aware those 30 deadare not the fault of Israel, but of their own governments. Twister.

Yeah right, the Lebanese government is in love with Syriatool Hizbollah

It never ceases to amaze me how Israel (and its sycophants) blame the "governments" that they actively prevented from effectively ruling for years.

In Palestine, they have blockaded Arafat for years in his office, but still treated every move by Fatah as if directly guided by Arafat. If Fatah did anything against Israel, obviously Arafat was behind it, regardless of the fact that he couldn't get out of his office (and the very aim of this blockade was to make him as ineffective a ruler as possible).

When Abbas comes to power, the Israeli give him some breathable air, but barely offer any help. Abbas has to completely re-organize the State, democratize it, bring the economy out of the crapper. Pretty hard to do when his team is corrupt (nothing that Israel could do), when Hamas is so popular because it is the main source of humanitarian aid for the people living in misery, and when your territorial continuity is inexistent.

Once Hamas wins the elections, barely one year later, the Palestinian authority is on the brink of civil war. The government is in direct conflict with the presidency. And yet, the Israeli PR wants us to believe that the situation should be dealt in exactly the same way as if any other foreign government did. Yeah right.

---

As to Lebanon, to claim that the Lebanese government is the faulty party would be hilarious, if such stupidity hadn't been criminal.

The only reasons why Hizullah is present in Parliament are:
- because the Hizbullah is extremely popular to the south (after all, they're the ones who filled the power vacuum left once Israel stopped occupying the place)
- because short-sighted politicians (even anti-Syrian ones)wanted to secure some votes for themselves by allying with the Hizbullah. This alliance of convenience crashed 6 monthes after the elections, notably when these politicans called for the disarmament of Hizbullah.
- because Hizbullah is such a potent faction in Lebanon, the only way to lessen the threat it represents is by pulling it in the mainstream.

Those reasons are a far, very far cry from what Israel sees: that the Lebanese government condoned or decided the capture of two Israeli soldiers. That the Lebanese government has made an act of war against Israel.

[muxec]

If local government can not handle local terrorists it is not neighbour's fault.

Gaza launches tens of missiles every month. Imagine what would happen to foreign city striking civilian targets in USA with tens of missiles. I think if Gaza launched tens of missiles on USA it would be non-existent in very short time.

Go read some books about mathematical games theory in general and stable long-term strategy in anti-cooperative games in particular.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


IMHO it doesn´t end terrorism.
Rather lays the foundation for new terrorists being recruited,
as it is bad PR for Israel (and therefore helps the terrorists).
Let´s for example say, you are a muslim and don´t have something to do with terrorism.
Then suddenly Israel bombards a district where your wife works or lives and kills her as well as a lot of your friends, just because somewhere else some israel soldiers were kidnapped.
Who would you, as a man who lost his wife and friends due to the attack, blame? The terrorists or the Israel forces?
Somehow I doubt that many people will say "the terrorists", but will rather be angry at israel (perhaps angry enough to, from this point on, directly or indirectly support the terrorists).

If you want to win the war you can only do this one way:
1. Invade all states which support or tolerate terrorists within their territory and erect police states under your direct control there, with a strong military presence and almost no civil libertys, but a lot of control on what´s going on there.
2. Invade all states which are pissed off (because in 1. you invaded their neighbors) and erect police states there with almost no civil liberties to catch all the terorists which feld the countries invaded in 1. (and all terrorists who got terrorists because in 2. you invaded their country)

Half hearted strikes against civilian airports and other civilian targets don´t do anything to end terrorism.
They just play into the hands of the terrorists, as it gives them new recruits

IMHO the current situation is a lose - lose situation for Israel.
Either they negotiate with the terrorists, showing them that kidnapping is a proper means to free their comrades.
Or they do nothing, which would piss off the israel military and probably the population, as it would seem like "abandoning their boys"
Or they do what they have done, i.e. using military means to invade the country where the terrorists are located.This would piss off the neighboring muslim states and give the terrorists new means for propaganda against israel and will probably lead to more recruits for terrorist groups worldwide (especially after bombing the airport).

Of course there would be a fourth possibility, i.e. using a limited command operation to free the hostages and kill the terrorists who held them captive. But to do this Israel would have to know where they are (which Israel obviously doesn´t know )

Therefore, be it one way or the other, in this situation IMHO the terrorists win.

Yea, note the constant enmity of Germany and Japan against the U.S. after it flattened almost every city in both countries in WW2, killing hundreds of thousands. We created millions of terrorists whose only thought was to destroy Americans wherever they could be found.

[MOBIUS]

ISRAEL HAS FINALLY GONE NUTS!

I blame a weakling civilian government being led by the military into attacking and destroying the infrastructure of entire countries ultimately because of its own failings...

Olmert (first non military leader for a long time?) has lost control of Israel's armed forces as they rampage through its neighbours. This can only escalate - badly!

Why else do you think the attack on Israeli forces happened in Northern Israel?

[MOBIUS]

PS much of ETA attacks from the safety of the French Basque territory - are we to assume that the next time ETA attacks Spain that Spain should blockade all of France's ports, bomb Charles De Gaulle airport (might be an improvement!) and generally hold the entire French nation responsible for the actions of a few terrorists!?

Maybe the next time the IRA bombs the UK we should nuke DC?

[Spiffor]

Re: ISRAEL HAS FINALLY GONE NUTS!

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Olmert (first non military leader for a long time?) has lost control of Israel's armed forces as they rampage through its neighbours. This can only escalate - badly!

To me, it seems Israel's response has been so excessive precisely because Olmert doesn't want to look like a weakling in front of his public opinion.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Maybe the next time the IRA bombs the UK we should nuke DC?

A very apt comparison. But expect the pro-Israeli sycophants to come and explain you that no, it's completely different. The ETA terrorists didn't kill civilians, err...
had no mainstream support from the US, uuuuuh....
were fully pursued in the US, no, still not that....


I'll come to you later for an excuse

[Sikander]

Re: ISRAEL HAS FINALLY GONE NUTS!

Originally posted by MOBIUS
I blame a weakling civilian government being led by the military into attacking and destroying the infrastructure of entire countries ultimately because of its own failings...

Olmert (first non military leader for a long time?) has lost control of Israel's armed forces as they rampage through its neighbours. This can only escalate - badly!

Why else do you think the attack on Israeli forces happened in Northern Israel?

Ahh, Mobius is back, complete with an overabundance of smilies, bolding and exclamation points. And he thinks Israel is nuts? Pot, meet kettle.