Surgeon chap says secondhand smoke bad

[Ming]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
... or restaraunts?

I have stated repeatedly on these forums that I understand the need for restaurants to be smoke free, and that I have no problem with that.

There's virtually no other way to guarantee that we can stay smoke-free if we want; there's little incentive for a restaraunt to ban smoking on its own initiative.

And why is that... maybe because they know some of their patrons want to smoke

I personally think that restaurant owners should have shown some balls and just outlawed smoking if they were such believers in it... but noooooo... they demanded the local government here in Chicago be the bad guys so that customers wouldn't be pissed at them.. totally gutless.

When it comes to bars and clubs, it should be up to the owner, and not the local government.

[Kuciwalker]

I have stated repeatedly on these forums that I understand the need for restaurants to be smoke free, and that I have no problem with that.

Ah, nevermind then. I was extrapolating from your other examples.

I don't care as much about bars or clubs, but that's because I never go to them, so... meh.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Ah, nevermind then. I was extrapolating from your other examples.

NP... I can understand that negative effect of second hand smoke on the dining experience. Smoke and eating food don't go hand in hand.

However, drinking and smoking does. Sure, there are some owners who want to provide a smoke free place for people to party, but most bar owners here see smoking as part of the club/bar experience. I think the market should be allowed to determine the desire for each.

[Arrian]

I do think bars should be able to get special permits to be "smoking bars" and maybe pay slightly higher taxes. Then the smokers could go there. Those places might carve out a nice niche.

-Arrian

[Ming]

Originally posted by Arrian
I do think bars should be able to get special permits to be "smoking bars" and maybe pay slightly higher taxes. Then the smokers could go there. Those places might carve out a nice niche.

-Arrian

Maybe it should be the other way around... maybe smoke free bars should have to pay more... and get a special permit. They might be able to carve out a nice niche...

Again... smoking isn't illegal (not yet)

[Arrian]

No, it's not. But you can decide to restrict and tax things that remain legal. Such as cigarettes.

I'm proposing a middle ground. I know that's unpopular here, but maybe it would, I dunno... actually WORK.

-Arrian

[Ming]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'm proposing a middle ground.

And all I'm proposing is personal freedom

I just love how some claim their freedom is being infringed upon when they decide to walk into a known smoking establishment... if they don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke, DON'T GO INTO A SMOKING ESTABLISHMENT! But no, there suggestion is to impose on many other peoples personal freedom...

[Arrian]

This, to me, is a gray area. A reasonable argument can be made by both sides on this one.

As a smoker, I never understood what the big deal was about having to go outside to have a smoke. Infringing on my personal freedom?

Banning it altogether would be. Making you smoke outside instead of inside bars? Exaggerate much?

-Arrian

[Lancer]

Does eating too much and getting fat kill off the people around you? Isn't this thread about secondhand smoke doing just that?

[Arrian]

Originally it was, yes, but we went off on a tangent about banning the whole thing.

-Arrian

[Lancer]

Banning the whole thing would be wrong imo. It circumvents Darwinism.

[Arrian]

Well hell, then all those Red States should be for it!!

-Arrian

[Ming]

Originally posted by Arrian
As a smoker, I never understood what the big deal was about having to go outside to have a smoke. Infringing on my personal freedom?

Yep... especially when it's 5 below zero outside, or pouring...

Making you smoke outside instead of inside bars?

My big problem with it is "WHO" is telling me to go outside to smoke. When I visit my friends, and they tell me to go outside, I do.. and don't even think twice about it. But when I'm forced to go outside when I'm at a bar, and the owner would prefer if I didn't have to... but is being forced to do so in his privately owned establishment... This is an infringement on personal freedom.

[Arrian]

The problem, unfortunately, is that w/o the governmental ban, every bar was a smoking bar. People had to chose between going out and dealing with second hand smoke or not going out.

I see your point. I get it. But I'm just not that worked up about it, sorry. Ideally there would be a good mix of smoking and non-smoking bars. Things are not ideal. But it's really not that bad.

Oh... and Ming? You should quit.

-Arrian

[Lancer]

What I like is what others have already observed in this thread. Ever time someone quits it is the most amazing transformation. They see what happens to their health and realize what smoking has been doing to them. You don't see it when you are young and you start, or progress into a pack or two a day addict. Like the frog in the frying pan, you don't feel what it's doing to you until you can't stop. So you start hating yourself and your weakness, you get defensive about the whole subject and start argueing for your 'right' to inflict detrimental health effects on others. Why? Because the damn things own you. When you break that addiction you become so strongly anti-smoking, non smokers and smokers alike are amazed by your vehemence. All of a sudden they can smell a smoker a block away and realize that's how THEY smelled. The physical and psycological effects are off your back and your proud of yourself, proud you beat it, mad at the damn things, and getting healthy feeling enough to take the battle to the enemy.

So, with every smoker who quits you potentially get another person strongly against smoking in public places.

These bans are inevitable and much of the reason is us ex smokers, flush from our victory over addiction and tired of the stench. We also realize that a ban might help others quit. Nobody wants to be a social outcast.

Victory!