Haditha - Moral Question

[Berzerker]

2 possible futures:

1 The US plays nice and the insugency grows, we're more interested in getting out than staying as civil war erupts - 1 million die

or

2 The US gets brutal and the insurgency dies, 100,000 die

What does the greater good require?

[BeBMan]

These are just assertions......no point in arguing about this when you arbitrarily define the 2 (only) "possible futures". That's not an open discussion.

[Berzerker]

its a question about the greater good, not how many possible futures we can create

if you cant answer, dont blame me...

[BeBMan]

Well, what's the point in arguing about this?

You basically ask "what's cooler, 100k or 1 million deaths?", and everytime one comes in and says "hey, maybe it's not so simple, maybe it's not 100k vs. 1 million, and maybe there are lots of other things to consider" you seem to simply mean "Nono, I am right, it's like 100k vs. 1 million, maybe not in exact numbers, but overall my view is correct, and yours are all wrong"

If you're already convinced that your POV is the only one which is right here than you certainly wouldn't need our confirmation, hm?

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Berzerker
So is the lesser of two evils the greater good?

No, because evil isn't good.
Like I said, the lesser of two evils is still evil.

Though I suppose there may be times when we may wish that we had done a little evil to do a greater good, this is usually not clear until after it's all over. We can't base our ethics and our actions on what we may or may not know 50 years from now, so we're stuck with having to do the best we can with what we know here and now. That's not a perfect system, but then again, people are not perfect.

Then you're not making your judgement on the greater good because its clear the greater good would have been served by Hitler's early death.

No, the greater good would have been served by Hitler growing up to become an artist or an achitect like he originally wanted to and living a long and happy life in peace.
His early death would have been the lesser of two evils, which would have been better than what we got, but this was clear to whom?
As I was just saying, this was not clear to anyone and could not have been clear to anyone at the time it could have made a difference. It would also not have been clear to anyone today if it had in fact happened.

So the greater good requires waiting

No, it requires you to be God if you're expected to make judgements like the one above. No one else could possibly know the things they'd need to know. Not now and not later.

So the greater good is not measured in people who are dead or alive, what then?

That's precisely the problem: The greater good is not an absolute, so there is no precise and correct way to measure it. Basically, it all boils down to what you think serves the greater good, on which there may be about as many opinions as there are people in the world. I personally have no precise definition of what I hold to be the greater good, but part of it has to do with as many people as possible living long and happy lives in peace. So, if a war can somehow eventually lead to a significant number of people living significantly happier and better lives than they otherwise could have, then it may have been worth it somehow. However, the end does NOT justify the means, so we also have to find good ways to get there. Otherwise we're not good guys.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Berzerker
The 3rd party now is the US military and we can save one group or another, larger group. The greater good requires saving the larger group. And if brutality saves the larger group, then the greater good requires such brutality.

You're talking about the lesser of two evils, not the greater good.
Also, your point is valid if - and only if - brutality is the only possible way to save the larger group.

[Terra Nullius]

The 3rd party now is the US military and we can save one group or another, larger group. The greater good requires saving the larger group. And if brutality saves the larger group, then the greater good requires such brutality.

Umm, forgive me Berks, I'm a little slow.

This is what you actually consider to be the more compelling argument?

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by BeBro
If you're already convinced that your POV is the only one which is right here than you certainly wouldn't need our confirmation, hm?

I already know my point of view is the only valid one.

But I'll let you pay me homage if you like.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Terra Nullius

I already know my point of view is the only valid one.

Yeah, I know the feeling.....

[SlowwHand]

My, my. Seems like moral questions are plentiful.

Police find 9 severed heads in Iraq

1 hour, 1 minute ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Police found nine severed heads in fruit boxes near a volatile city northeast of Baghdad on Tuesday, authorities said, the second such discovery in less than a week.

A roadside bomb also exploded near an American military convoy in central Baghdad, killing a woman and wounding three pedestrians, Lt. Thair Mahmoud said. The three-vehicle convoy was traveling near one of Baghdad's bus stations when the bomb detonated. The convoy kept moving.

The boxes containing the heads — all from men — were discovered by a highway in the village of Hadid near Baqouba, a mixed Shiite-Sunni Arab city 35 miles northeast of Baghdad that has seen a recent rise in sectarian violence.

The heads were transferred to the city morgue and an investigation was under way, according to the Joint Cooperation Center, which is run by Iraqi and U.S. forces.

Iraqi police also found eight severed heads in the village on Saturday, with a note indicating at least one of those men had been killed in retaliation for the slaying of four Shiite doctors and a former governor during the administration of former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.

[SpencerH]

Re: Haditha - Moral Question

Originally posted by Berzerker

So, for the sake of my question assume the tactic of wiping out small numbers of people to suppress an insurgency works better than trying to avoid hurting the innocent. Wouldn't the greater good require enough attacks on the innocent in unfriendly towns to teach them not to hang around or help the insurgents?

Evil in the name of good is still evil. The deliberate killing of innocents must not be condoned (not that I believe that's what happened here).

[SlowwHand]

Again, stand before a crowd, and point out the innocents.

[SpencerH]

All those in the crowd not pointing weapons at me. That's why it's psychologically tougher to be a grunt in a peacemaking situation than in the shooting war and why only the best disciplined troops (like ours) do it well.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by SpencerH
All those in the crowd not pointing weapons at me. That's why it's psychologically tougher to be a grunt in a peacemaking situation than in the shooting war and why only the best disciplined troops (like ours) do it well.

But our troops aren't trained for it either. Discipline will only take you so far. Honestly, if we intend to occupy a country like this again, we really need troops with peacekeeping training, or heavily-armed police with some military combat training.

[Guardian]

Part of the problem in Iraq is that the US and their allies invaded with a force large enough to topple a government in just over a month, but not nearly large enough to control the country afterwards. The US forces in Iraq are forced to patrol towns where they don't control squat, or they control certain parts of certain streets for a few minutes every so many hours. They're overstretched so far that they're afraid to cross the street in many areas. You can't put troops into situations like that, keep them there over extended periods of time and expect every last one of them to perform flawlessly at all times. No military force is that disciplined. Sad but true.

I'm not saying the troops are not responsible for their own actions, but I am saying that the politicians and the staff planners who got the troops into this mess should have known better and planned better than what seems to be the case here.