The Police State Continues -- US Military to Patrol Mexican Border

[Ted Striker]

Well, I'm okay with that then, if a few hundred innocent people get screwed over, as long as most of them are baddies

[lord of the mark]

Gitmo Detainees Return To Terror

WASHINGTON, Oct. 17, 2004
(CBS/AP)
(AP) U.S. military officials say that despite being freed in exchange for signing pledges to renounce violence, at least seven former prisoners of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have returned to terrorism, at times with deadly consequences.

At least two are believed to have died in fighting in Afghanistan, and a third was recaptured during a raid of a suspected training camp in Afghanistan, said Lt. Cmdr. Flex Plexico, a Pentagon spokesman. Others are at large.

Additional former detainees are said to have expressed a desire to rejoin the fight, be it against U.N. peacekeepers in Afghanistan, Americans in Iraq or Russian soldiers in Chechnya.

Some 146 detainees have been released from Guantanamo, but only after U.S. officials had determined the prisoners no longer posed threats and had no remaining intelligence value.

Pentagon officials acknowledged that the release process is imperfect, but they said most of the Guantanamo detainees released have steered clear of Islamic insurgent groups.

The small number returning to the fight demonstrates the delicate balance the United States must strike between minimizing the appearance of holding people unjustly and keeping those who are legitimate long-term threats, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

Human rights groups frequently criticize the Defense Department for holding the hundreds of prisoners at the naval base, largely without charges or legal counsel. Many have been held for more than two years; only a few have been charged.

An additional 57 Guantanamo prisoners have been transferred to the custody of their home governments: 29 to Pakistan; seven to Russia; five each to Morocco and Britain; four each to France and Saudi Arabia; and one each to Spain, Sweden and Denmark, the Pentagon has said.

The Pentagon did not identify the seven detainees believed to have returned to fighting, although a few names have been made public. One released detainee killed a judge leaving a mosque in Afghanistan, Plexico said.

Those in the small group that has gone back to fighting come mainly from the upper echelons of suspected militant or terror groups, some allegedly linked to al Qaeda, several counterterrorism officials in the Middle East said. They gave no details, but one noted a trend that lower-echelon members tend to get on with their lives after they are released.

The former prisoners include Abdullah Mehsud, a former Guantanamo Bay detainee linked to al Qaeda who oversaw the recent kidnapping of two Chinese engineers, one of whom was killed.

On Friday, Pakistani soldiers began a massive search for Mehsud, 28, who returned to Pakistan in March after about two years' detention at Guantanamo. Pakistan officials say he has forged ties with al Qaeda since then.

One of the two former prisoners killed is Maulvi Abdul Ghaffar, a senior Taliban commander in northern Afghanistan who was arrested about two months after a U.S.-led coalition drove the militia from power in late 2001.

He was held at Guantanamo for eight months, then released, and was killed about a month ago, on Sept. 26, by Afghan security forces during a raid in Uruzgan province. Afghan leaders said they believed he was leading Taliban forces in the southern province.

Maj. Gen. Eric Olson, the No. 2 commander of U.S. troops in Afghanistan, told The Associated Press this month there was no alternative to releasing prisoners from Guantanamo.

"It's not going to be perfect, so it (the Ghaffar case) has not led to any soul-searching about the release program," Olson said.

Other former prisoners have expressed publicly they wanted to return to the fight.

In Denmark, Slimane Hadj Abderrahmane, who was released in February from the U.S. naval base on Cuba's southeastern tip, said he would go to Chechnya to fight with rebels there against Russia.

"The Muslims are oppressed in Chechnya, and the Russians are carrying out terror against them," the 31-year-old Dane, who has an Algerian father, told Danish television in September.

Abderrahmane, who was never charged in Denmark upon his return, later backtracked. After being questioned by Danish intelligence agents, he said he would stay in Denmark, hand over his passport and honor his pledge. Danish intelligence officials are keeping tabs on Abderrahmane.

In Sweden, Mehdi-Muhammed Ghezali, who was released in July after more than two years at the base, is being monitored by Swedish intelligence agents. While Sweden's security police, SAPO, has no official comment, its agents have said Ghezali is not a threat.

Other former Guantanamo prisoners, including Yaser Esam Hamdi of Saudi Arabia, had their releases held up amid fears they would rejoin their comrades.

Hamdi, who was born in Louisiana, spent three years in solitary confinement, first at Guantanamo and then at a Navy brig in South Carolina after he was captured in Afghanistan in 2001. He was returned to Saudi Arabia on Oct. 11 after agreeing to forfeit his U.S. citizenship.

He also is required to stay in Saudi Arabia for five years, renounce terror and cannot travel to Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Pakistan or Syria. Additionally, Hamdi must notify Saudi officials if he becomes aware of "any planned or executed acts of terrorism."

It is likely that Hamdi will be monitored by government officials there, as much as Ghezali and Abderrahmane have been in northern Europe.

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


the law that is before congress right now, would change that, so it would be legal. Whether the military has capabilities that could help the border patrol, like logistics in the desert, or just adding some manpower, is a reasonable question, which the OP has not addressed (other than to say his Marine friends dont like peacekeeping in Iraq, which is a whole nother can of worms - ive long thought we need a seperate peacekeeping force, but im very surprised to hear that Anbar province has reached the stage of "peacekeeping")

This raises interesting possibilities. Imagine a new branch of the US army, specifically designed for the tasks that the current army cannot - or rather should not be asked - to fullfil: border patrol, counter-insurgency, etc... Do you reinvent the army or do you create new branches? I guess it depends on whether you want to limit their activity to within the US borders.

[Arrian]

7/146...less than 5%. Although I'm sure the actual number is higher than that. Even if it is 50%... this justifies keeping these guys at Gitmo indefinitely without trial?

How many people are arrested and released and then go on to commit crimes? Does that mean we should hold more suspects w/o charges or trial?

[edit: this is not meant to be argumentative towards LotM. Looking at it again made me think it could be read that way.]

-Arrian

p.s. And that's not even addressing the possibility that we made enemies of some of these guys. I suspect that many (most?) were already enemies, but if any weren't already, it doesn't seem like a stretch to think they might now have a real grudge...

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Gitmo Detainees Return To Terror

For every one of those articles you post I can probably come up with 4 against it.

MIAMI – Five Muslim detainees from China's western Xinjiang province are stranded in a legal no man's land at the US terrorism prison camp at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

They shouldn't be there. Even the US military has found that the men, members of the besieged Uighur ethnic group, are not enemy combatants. But their ordeal in custody isn't over. Because they could face harsh treatment back in China - and the US doesn't want to set a precedent by granting them asylum here - they sit in a barracks-like detention center waiting for a country to give them a home.

Now, more than four years after their imprisonment by US military forces, the men are asking the US Supreme Court to examine their case. At issue is whether individuals captured abroad can be held in military detention indefinitely - even after the US government has declared that they pose no threat to national security.

"These men have been adjudged by the military to be, essentially, mistakes. They are innocent men captured by mistake by US forces abroad," says Neil McGaraghan, a lawyer representing two of the detainees.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0213/p03s03-usju.html

Four Britons who arrived home yesterday from three years' detention in Guantanamo Bay were being held by British anti-terrorist police.

One of their solicitors, a human rights lawyer, said she was "appalled" that they were still being held in custody.

But Massoud Shadjareh, of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said: "After three years of torture and questioning even the Americans have concluded they are innocent and our security forces also had access to question them over there.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Anger-as-Britons-held-at-Guantanamo-return/2005/01/26/1106415668686.html

[JimmyCracksCorn]

I agree with Ted.

The military should not be defending the border between two peaceful countries.

Why not just hire more border patrol? They're militant enough...

[MrFun]

Threadjacking from the issue of patrolling the border with Mexico to detaining suspected terrorists.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
It's laughable that people think that military just means killing people in the first place.

You'd be in disagreement with my former Army Ranger Chemistry teacher. Vietnam vet, told us point blank the purpose of the military is to "kill people and break things".

He was quite proud of that fact. Though he also told us a story of compassion, but it doesn't really have relevance here.

[Ecthy]

And now we're getting Apocalypse on TEF! Yay! First round!

(Feather versus sword)

[DinoDoc]

This is actually the least offensive thing I've seen Ted get hysterical about. What thread will we see next? "Police State Continues - Government Punishes People who Employ Illegals"? Or how about the always fun "Police State Continues - Police raid local crack house".

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous


You'd be in disagreement with my former Army Ranger Chemistry teacher. Vietnam vet, told us point blank the purpose of the military is to "kill people and break things".

This has also been told to me in those exact words by a vet.

Really, when you break it down, that is the basic purpose of the military.

That's all it should be doing.

That's why we have had specialized groups to do different things like Border Guards and Police.

When the movie "the Siege" (1998) came out, I thought it was such a joke. But this film is eerily dead on on many of the things that happened post 9/11. The Army General even warns not to be using the military for police matters:

Army General William Devereaux (Bruce Willis), a quiet intellectual with a strong belief in civil liberty, cautions what a mistake giving control to the Army would be. As he puts it, "The Army is a broadsword, not a scalpel."

http://www.allmovieportal.com/m/1998_The_Siege6.html

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
This is actually the least offensive thing I've seen Ted get hysterical about. What thread will we see next? "Police State Continues - Government Punishes People who Employ Illegals"? Or how about the always fun "Police State Continues - Police raid local crack house".

WOW another solid contribution !



I've learned so much from you DinoDoc

Well, not really

[lord of the mark]

i read an article about this (not on line)

There actually looking at National Guard units. The governors have authority over National Guard units, so Tx and Ariz units can already be used on the boarder. This would allow federalized guard units, from other states to participate.

National guard units are already widely used domestically. This isnt about sending the USMC to the border.

WRT Gitmo - your quotes, Ted, are from attorneys and groups representing the detainees, who take release as proof the military considers them innocent. Which simply is not the case. The intention was not to hold the enemy combatants for life.

And again, Im not saying the situation is perfect. War sucks. And it may very well be that someone else could manage Gitmo and the other detention centers better than the current admin does. But its a big leap from that to "police state"

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous


You'd be in disagreement with my former Army Ranger Chemistry teacher. Vietnam vet, told us point blank the purpose of the military is to "kill people and break things".

He was quite proud of that fact. Though he also told us a story of compassion, but it doesn't really have relevance here.

My father, may he rest in peace, was a vet, and he served (briefly) in the occupation of Japan. Sometime the military has to do things OTHER than break things. Thats ever more the reality today.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
But its a big leap from that to "police state"

Combined with domestic spying, torture, dropping the Geneva Conventions

Well yeah, moving towards a police state