NSA building massive database of US domestic phone records

[Ned]

Pekka, the American left likes police states, just so long as they are in power. What they object to is the creation of any government tool that could be used to monitor their subversion or to defend American against its enemies. (That is, until THEY, take over.)

The creation of this tool by the NSA (not the FBI) is intended to be used against al Qa'ida. It will help prevent any new 9/11. It is not intended to be used against the far left -- yet.

BTW, I assume the left would have no objection to the use of this tool against far-right lunatics that also blow up buildings if they get pissed off.

[Pekka]

Are you being serious?

The technology is not built to gather data on AQ. If they haven't done that using this technology for years now, I would be very surprised. It's not true. They have done this and will continue to do this to get AQ members - which is a good thing I'd like to remind.

But it has nothing to do with this latest development. Why would they need information ON YOU? They don't. They won't pick up any new terrorists by randomly collecting data. They do it like they have done so far, by association and collecting data on those, building profiles, their social networks, etc. Random data collection, a rather comprehensive one.... ? Has nothing to do with this.

In fact, who cares what it is intended for? WHat matters is what its capable of, that means, what harm can it do to normal citizens.

[Ned]

Pekka, from my understanding, it is intended to be used to help detect terrorist activity in the United States. So it has everything to do with al Qa'ida.

Just because a tool can be used for a bad purpose does not mean that it should not be created. It just has to be monitored by Congress so that it is not abused.

[Pekka]

Right. But such tools have been existing for a long time now. So it's not a tool 'to help catch AQ'. It's a tool to be implented, used to monitor US citizens.

And because it si implented, it will be abused. It's not if or why, it will be, it's just how technology goes. It always happens. Except now there's a greater opportunity for greater damage.

Don't put your trust on technology. It is used by men. It was defined by men. That means, that the flags and ratings how suspects will be pulled are still defined by men. There will be mostly just mistakes because of that, suspects that are innocent.

Furthermore this data will be highly classified. It will be used by the principle of fragmented data, meaning data is scattered aroudn and put together to form profiles etc. That also means, that the 'results' are highly unreliable in most cases. And because it is classified, you can not know what they have on you. THat means, that if and when they have false information on most people that are suspected, they can not challenge the wrong information. There is no way, that they can go there and easily set some records straight with 100% accuracy and provability. That's just impossible in these cases.

That means, that your life can be screwed over by a likely mistake in most suspect cases, or someone can do it to you on purpose.

The big point is, if you allow this to happen, it will happen. And mostly, this does not contribute to big AQ bust. There needs to be lines drawn as to what is acceptable to get these guys. You wouldn't accept random house calls at the middle of the night, just random. Because you never know where they are or hide or what ever.. that would be unacceptable. That would intrude your privacy and there was no need for that.

This privacy intrusion is even more comprehensive. They not only try to find patterns and raise flags (which inherently will lead to mostly failed cases and sometimes ruined lives), they will build profiles on many people there was no need when common sense would be used (because 'technology does it for us') etc..

[Ned]

Pekka, you leap to unwarranted conclusions. The DB is not intended to spy on ordinary Americans for any purpose. It is intended to help detect terrorists.

[KrazyHorse]

You're a tool, Ned.

[Arrian]

And, of course, the damned dirty traitorous lefties/liberals who undermine the Reich, I mean the Greatest Nation on Earth!

-Arrian

[-Jrabbit]

Well, that's the pretext.

And who have they caught? Just some poor wacko who wanted to break down the Brooklyn Bridge with a blowtorch.

What I find insulting is the contention that this program has "prevented" or "foiled" further terrorist attacks. The same sort of WMD fear-mongering that got us into this mess.

[Ted Striker]

word

[Darius871]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Well, that's the pretext.

And who have they caught? Just some poor wacko who wanted to break down the Brooklyn Bridge with a blowtorch.

What I find insulting is the contention that this program has "prevented" or "foiled" further terrorist attacks. The same sort of WMD fear-mongering that got us into this mess.

How can you know that? Is it not possible that some (or many) foiled plots aren't reported to the general public because doing so would reveal valuable intel sources and/or methods?

[Arrian]

The beauty of that argument, of course, is that it requires no proof of anything, besides the lack of an attack. See! The NSA is keeping us safe!

-Arrian

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Darius871


How can you know that? Is it not possible that some (or many) foiled plots aren't reported to the general public because doing so would reveal valuable intel sources and/or methods?

That's what they told us during the runup to the war with Iraq.

If the information was revealed, it would put people's lives at risk, they said.

Most of us just gave them the benefit of the doubt. The government wouldn't lie to us would they? Of course not!

Turns out the information really was just lies.

[-Jrabbit]

And now that we know they will lie to us to advance their agenda, the burden of proof should one of factual reality.

My biggest problem with this (well, outside of the continued flouting of the Bill of Rights) is that there is no oversight of any kind. The Dept of Justice has been shut out for -- wait for it -- lack of security clearance, ha-HA! The whole operation is behind closed doors. All we know is that tens of millions of US citizens phone records are now databased for the NSA to do with as it pleases.

That's NOT how our government is supposed to work.

[Elok]

Okay then, let's hold a sing-along. "Hear the sound of the falling rain, like the sound of an armageddon flame, the shame, of those who died without a naaaaaame..."

Yeah, we're awesome. Fight the power. Et cetera.

[DanS]

Interesting...

45. It's been reported that the National Security Agency has been collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans. It then analyzes calling patterns in an effort to identify possible terrorism suspects, without listening to or recording the conversations. Would you consider this an acceptable or unacceptable way for the federal government to investigate terrorism? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?

             ------- Acceptable ------   ----- Unacceptable ------    No   
             NET   Strongly   Somewhat   NET   Somewhat   Strongly   opin.
5/11/06      63       41         22      35       11         24        2

46. If you found out that the NSA had a record of phone numbers that you yourself have called, would that bother you, or not? IF YES: Would it bother you a lot, or just somewhat?

            -----------Yes------------
            NET     A lot     Somewhat     No     No opin.
5/11/06     34        24         10        66         *

47. Do you think it is right or wrong for the news media to have disclosed this secret government program?

            Right     Wrong     No opin.
5/11/06       56        42          1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_nsa_051206.htm