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  • #46
    Carter just had an interview last month in which has said he continue to believe Reagan did indeed arange the October Surprise to assure his election and that selling arms to Iran was Reagan's pay back to the mullahs. It isn't crazy and in all likelihood is exactly what happened.


    It is wiki, but their are links to the sources:



    Senate Investigation

    The US Senate’s 1992 report concluded that "by any standard, the credible evidence now known falls far short of supporting the allegation of an agreement between the Reagan campaign and Iran to delay the release of the hostages" [3].
    [edit]

    House of Representatives Investigation

    The House of Representatives’ 1993 report concluded that there was insufficient evidence that representatives from the Ronald Reagan’s election campaign had met with or had any contact with the Iranian government. The report also expressed the belief that several witness had committed perjury during their sworn statements to them, among whom Richard Brenneke, a CIA agent accused of perjury [4]. However, Richard Brenneke was acquitted of all charges [5]
    [edit]

    The Village Voice

    Retired CIA agent Frank Snepp of The Village Voice compiled several investigations of Sick’s allegations in 1992, and concluded that almost every single statement Sick made, and all the witnesses he had used turned out to be false or lying. Snepp alleged that Sick had only interviewed half of the sources used in his book, and supposedly relied on hearsay from unreliable sources for large amounts of critical material. According to Snepp, not one of Sick’s sources had any direct knowledge of the alleged plot. Snepp also discovered that in 1989, Sick had sold the rights to his book to Oliver Stone, who refused to turn it into a movie. After going through evidence presented by Richard Brenneke Snepp discovered that Brenneke’s credit card receipts showed him to be staying at a motel in Seattle, during the time he claimed to be in Paris observing the secret meeting [6]
    [edit]

    Newsweek

    Newsweek magazine also ran an investigation, and they too found most if not all the charges made to be groundless. Specifically, Newsweek found little evidence that the United States had transferred arms to Iran prior to Iran Contra, was able to account for George Bush’s whereabouts when he was allegedly at the Paris meeting, and found little corroboration when Sick’s witnesses were interviewed separately. Newsweek also alleged that the story was being heavily pushed within the LaRouche Movement [7]
    [edit]

    The New Republic

    Steven Emerson and Jesse Furman of the New Republic Magazine, also looked into the allegations and found “the conspiracy as currently postulated is a total fabrication”. They were unable to verify any of the evidence presented by Sick and supporters, finding them to be inconsistent and contradictory in nature. They also pointed out that nearly every witness of Sick had either been indicted or were under investigation by the Department of Justice. Like the Newsweek investigation they had also debunked the claims of Reagan election campaign officials being in Paris during the timeframe Sick claimed they had been, contradicting Sick’s sources [8].


    Further more JFK's handling of the Cuban missile crisis was top notch.


    Oh PLEASE! We had nukes in Turkey. The Soviets put nukes in Cuba and suddenly we are the on the brink of WW3? Because Kennedy has to become a hothead and announce everything to the public? Any competent President would have handled it privately, doing an exchange of removing missiles without making everyone think the world was going to end.

    f he hadn't been shot then likely we would never have gotten so deeply involved in Vietnam (JFK and his main advisors didn't want the US to get in any deeper while Johnson's camp wanted to go whole hog) and the race issue would have likely been dealt with sooner without the race riots. In short he was on his way to being one of the best Presidents ever.




    This post death deification of Kennedy is utterly absurd. The only thing missing is he puts on a cloak and flys around as Superman.

    Yeah, JFK's aides didn't want to go any further in Vietnam, but LBJ's did... even though the Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara served for Kennedy and LBJ. Who else do you consult with over a war than your own SecDef? And is there any proof that JFK wanted to leave Vietnam at any point? Nope. Don't think that Kennedy didn't escalate the US presense in Vietnam either.

    As for race relations. Kennedy did absolutely NOTHING on race while President. He made a few speeches, but was afraid of the Southern Democrats and made no moves at actually passing a Civil Rights Act. Introducing one without any advancement was seen as enough. It was only under a huge mandate after Kennedy's death did LBJ have the political capital (and his experience with Congress) to undertake such an affair, a year after Kennedy's death.

    The amusing part is the idea that Kennedy had such political capital to leave Vietnam without being seen as weak on Communism (which doomed LBJ) and fix the 'race issue' when there were massive questions as to whether he'd even be relected!

    In reality, Kennedy was perhaps one of our worst Presidents and was woefully unprepared for the job. If he lived, he would have been seen as a low point after the great job done by Eisenhower.
    Last edited by Imran Siddiqui; May 9, 2006, 21:37.
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
      Not proportionately, it's not. Lincoln's disregard for the First Amendment was, as you rightly point out, a desparate measure in a desparate time -- indeed, the most desperate time in our nation's history. The outrages of Iran-Contra certainly also qualify as desperate measures, but where the hell was the "desperate time"? Ooo, a banana republic elected a socialist government...scary stuff, kids! Puh-leeze. It's not a valid comparison.
      In the middle of a Cold War, where the capitalist world was fighting against the communist one all over the world, and this being in the same continent as the US, people may indeed have decided it was a desperate time.
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

      Comment


      • #48
        We were a moral country until then
        We were a moral country until Clinton got a BJ? Morality is not in the nature of government, I believe Tom Paine called it a necessary evil. But why is a BJ immoral? It dont sound like he had to use his authority to coerce it out of her, so I fail to see the problem. Clinton got in trouble because he then lied about it on the stand when he was sued by Paula Jones who accused him of sexual harassment. Obviously any pattern of Clinton having sex with employees would help her case.

        As for Reagan, he called the Contras "freedom fighters" and compared them with the Founding Fathers but called the Contras "thugs" in private, so even he knew they were terrorists...and they were terrorists... They avoided open conflict with the Sandinista army and focused on raiding villages, murdering social workers, teachers, doctors, nurses and the sort, to inhibit new gov't policies.

        Joseph, do you have the name of this pilot? When I first learned the hostages were let go with Reagan's entry into office, I thought the Iranians were scared of Reagan. But that didn't really make much sense, I suspect Carter was more on Saddam's side and might have even asked Saddam to attack Iran and we'd support him. So there was an opening to deal with the Iranians, tell them the Reagan administration would sell them weapons and wouldn't help Saddam (too much ). I dont know if its true but I heard Nixon was negotiating with Vietnam even while LBJ was in office.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
          As for race relations. Kennedy did absolutely NOTHING on race while President. He made a few speeches, but was afraid of the Southern Democrats and made no moves at actually passing a Civil Rights Act. Introducing one without any advancement was seen as enough. It was only under a huge mandate after Kennedy's death did LBJ have the political capital (and his experience with Congress) to undertake such an affair, a year after Kennedy's death.
          He didn't have the legislative know-how or clout to advance the Civil Rights Act. It wasn't a matter of not having the will.

          Kennedy also sent the FBI to investigate attacks on civil rights workers in the South, and he nationalized the Alabama National Guard so that the University of Alabama could be intergrated.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Zkribbler
            He didn't have the legislative know-how or clout to advance the Civil Rights Act. It wasn't a matter of not having the will.

            Kennedy also sent the FBI to investigate attacks on civil rights workers in the South, and he nationalized the Alabama National Guard so that the University of Alabama could be intergrated.
            You mean like Eisenhower did? Well it would have sucked that someone who spoke so much about Civil Rights wouldn't even do the things his predessor, who never spoke of such things, did.

            And perhaps Kennedy didn't have the legislative know-how or clout to advance a Civil Rights Act, but really wanted too... but even in that case, how would he magically gain that to solve the 'race issue' before the race riots occured? Hence my dismissive "Superman" comment.

            Hell, Kennedy's death was probably a great thing for this country on a number of levels. Mainly that all the outpouring of sympathy allowed LBJ to make the heroic choice to advance the Civil Rights Bill, even though it cost his party a good part of its base.
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


              In the middle of a Cold War, where the capitalist world was fighting against the communist one all over the world, and this being in the same continent as the US, people may indeed have decided it was a desperate time.
              "People may have indeed decided" is such a Reaganesque circumlocution! Bravo!

              People did decide whether or not the situation was desperate, and codified their decision in the law that expressedly forbade assistance to the contras. Reagan Administration officials decided otherwise. Given that Ortega ran the country until 1990, was then replaced by one of his colleagues from the post-Somoza junta, and teh West is still free, I think history has adequately shown how precient the Reaganauts were on this matter.

              But perhaps your position is that the president is justified in doing what he does if he thinks times are desperate. In that case, you need to move yourself back over into the Bush supported column.

              On the other hand, you're completely correct about Kennedy. Nice post there.
              "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
                "People may have indeed decided" is such a Reaganesque circumlocution! Bravo!

                People did decide whether or not the situation was desperate, and codified their decision in the law that expressedly forbade assistance to the contras. Reagan Administration officials decided otherwise. Given that Ortega ran the country until 1990, was then replaced by one of his colleagues from the post-Somoza junta, and teh West is still free, I think history has adequately shown how precient the Reaganauts were on this matter.

                But perhaps your position is that the president is justified in doing what he does if he thinks times are desperate. In that case, you need to move yourself back over into the Bush supported column.
                It's the EXACT same argument as Lincoln. The Supreme Court decided afterwards that the situation Lincoln faced was not desperate enough to jail newspapermen that disagreed with his running of the war.

                THAT is why people did support Reagan after the scandel and why conservatives see Ollie North as a sort of hero. Because they did feel the time was desperate enough (and they liked seeing North tear into Congress). Otherwise, he would have been gone. They didn't even initiate impeachment.

                Whether or not something is a desperate time/measure and if it is justified is determined, ultimately, by public opinion.

                And yes "People may have indeed decided" it was a desperate time. How else do you think they justified it at the time (or currently)?
                Last edited by Imran Siddiqui; May 9, 2006, 22:07.
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                  Hell, Kennedy's death was probably a great thing for this country on a number of levels. Mainly that all the outpouring of sympathy allowed LBJ to make the heroic choice to advance the Civil Rights Bill, even though it cost his party a good part of its base.
                  The first sentence is overstated. However, one could state that, even though the President's assassination was a national tragedy, some good things did arise out of it.

                  I agree that LBJ was able to use JFK's death to leverage the Civil Rights Act through Congress and that if JFK had still be alive, the bill amost certainly would not have passed.

                  Its passage also lost the Dems a lot of votes. States righters and just plain racists switched parties. Later, Reagan would strip away lots of white working folks whe were becoming ever more frustrated from losing out to minorities under affirmative action programs.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    [q=Zkribbler]The first sentence is overstated.[/q]

                    Eh... I don't think Kennedy was a decent president and I think the sole result of the Civil Rights Act being able to pass due to his death made it, overall, a good thing for the country.

                    It's a cost/benefit thing.
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
                      On the other hand, you're completely correct about Kennedy. Nice post there.
                      What pisses me off about the deification of Kennedy is that it totally turns LBJ into a monster. I don't agree with LBJ. I thought escalation of Vietnam and the Great Society were mistakes, but he made an absolutely heroic choice in pushing through the Civil Rights Act using a significant amount of capital. After he signed it, he said "We just lost the South", and at the time he thought he'd be running for reelection and knew he wouldn't be able to count on the Democrat base (ie, the South).

                      By saying Kennedy would have ended Vietnam, LBJ looks like a total villian for expanding it, when I think Kennedy would have had no choice but to do the same (Nixon, an avowed anti-Communist, couldn't avoid it when I think he didn't give a damn about Vietnam). By saying Kennedy would have solved the 'race issue' without the race riots, LBJ's heroic action gets greatly diminished.

                      I realize LBJ is supposed to be somewhat of a villian for Vietnam, but come on.
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        LBJ also managed to shephard through the Senate the Civil Rights Act of '57, the first Civil Rights legislation since Reconstruction.
                        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                        -Bokonon

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                          And yes "People may have indeed decided" it was a desperate time. How else do you think they justified it at the time (or currently)?
                          BY people you mean a few felons in the Reagan admin. right?
                          If you don't like reality, change it! me
                          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by GePap
                            BY people you mean a few felons in the Reagan admin. right?
                            And the people who approved of the job Reagan was doing as shown in the polls of the time.
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              You mean how his approval plummeted by ~15 points after Iran-Contra broke?
                              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                              -Bokonon

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                And was still 46% and only for a short time, whereafter it quickly rose... until it was 63% when he left?
                                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                                Comment

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