Catholics and cocktales

[Terra Nullius]

Cardinal Martini stated in l'Espresso weekly that using condoms might, possibly, just maybe, be ever so slightly more ethical than contributing to the on-going spread of AIDS. The guy's clearly been caught out after having a few too many on a Friday arvo. I mean, with a name like "Martini," how can the guy really be asked to give a sober opinion?

So people, if you ever got to wear a silly pink hat and spend your time making professional judgements about latex evening wear, which beverage would you choose to be remembered by?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4929962.stm

Cardinal backs limited condom use

Cardinal Martini is one of the Church's most prominent leaders
One of the Roman Catholic Church's most distinguished cardinals has publicly backed the use of condoms among married couples to prevent Aids transmission.
Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said that in couples where one had HIV/Aids, which could pass to the partner, the use of condoms was "a lesser evil".

The Vatican says condoms should never be used, even to stop Aids spreading from one married partner to another.

The Church teaches that abstinence is the best way to tackle disease.

Growing issue

Cardinal Martini, who used to be Archbishop of Milan, made the comments in an interview with the Italian weekly magazine l'Espresso.

In it he says that the fight against Aids, which has caused more than three million deaths, mostly in sub-Saharan Africa, must be pursued by all available means.

The Vatican has made no official comment on the article, in which the cardinal also raises the possibility of single mothers adopting abandoned children.

But the BBC's David Willey in Rome says that such matters are an increasingly important subject of discussion in Church circles.

According to insistent reports, Cardinal Martini was a close runner-up in last year's papal election.

[chequita guevara]

Religion is stupid. Throw rocks at it.

[Terra Nullius]

It's a tough one for me.

Have to admit, a good, dry martini is pretty hard to beat... And none of that vodka martini, shaken not stirred crap. No gin, no martini. Has to be really, really dry, with a good olive. And only a philistine would ever shake a martini.

But, that one's been taken, so ... I dunno. Brandy Alexanders are fun when I'm feeling girly, but they're so sweet and creamy - it's not something you'd want to go with in public.

[DanS]

The church hierarchy's role isn't to teach lesser evils. However, individual catholics as a rule, figure that stuff out themselves just fine.

[Terra Nullius]

In developped western nations, sure.

In Africa and in the Phillipines, it's pretty hard to justify.

[DanS]

What would you have the church do? Teach that it's OK to do evil? You'll be waiting a long, long time.

[Terra Nullius]

It's an old story (2003), but I would expect someone with the authority of a senior cardinal to at least check their facts before spouting off.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3176982.stm

The Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus. The claims are made in a Panorama programme called Sex and the Holy City to be screened on BBC One on Sunday.

It says cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns in four continents are saying HIV can pass through tiny holes in condoms. The World Health Organization has condemned the comments and warned the Vatican it is putting lives at risk.

...

In an interview, one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals Alfonso Lopez Trujillo suggested HIV could even pass through condoms. "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom," he says. The cardinal, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, suggests that governments should urge people not to use condoms.

The programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".


Gordon Wambi, director of an Aids testing programme in Lwak, near Lake Victoria, told the programme that he could not distribute condoms because of opposition from the Catholic Church.

...

According to Panaroma, the claims about condoms are repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

Catherine Hankins, chief scientific advisor to UNAids, condemned the Church's comments.
"It is very unfortunate to have this type of misinformation being broadcast," she told BBC News Online. "It is a concern. From a technical point of view, the statements are totally incorrect. "Latex condoms are impermeable. They do prevent HIV transmission."

The WHO also attacked the Catholic Church's comments.
"Statements like this are quite dangerous, " a spokeswoman told BBC News Online. "We are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people and currently affects around 42 million. "There is so much evidence to show that condoms don't let sexually transmitted infections like HIV through.

"Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong."

[Terra Nullius]

I'd hope that archbichops might not make leaps of unsubstantiated fancy in their logic.

http://www.cathnews.com/news/310/53.php

Congo's Kinshasa Archbishop Dominique Bulamatari said: "Using condoms as a means of preventing AIDS can only lead to sexual promiscuity."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0-2005Apr8.html

Sister Christine Jacob, who oversees a rural medical facility outside Pretoria that provides antiretroviral drugs and other care for AIDS sufferers, said she would counsel a 20-year-old woman contemplating sex to abstain. And teenagers, she said, routinely ask the clinic to provide condoms but are denied.

"Our biggest fear is -- and this has been proved -- by saying 'condomize,' it's giving license" for sex, Jacob said.

[Terra Nullius]

And, please Santa, how about taking slightly less than FIVE YEARS to consider an argument that affects the lives of millions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38440-2005Apr8.html

Ngonyama and other South African Catholics who support the use of condoms as a means of AIDS prevention -- a group that includes priests, nuns and at least one bishop -- contend their views do not necessarily contradict those of the late Pope John Paul II, who strenuously opposed artificial means of contraception. Instead, they see condoms as a tool to prevent the spread of a disease that is killing millions of people; any contraceptive effect is not a valid part of the debate.

Viewed in that way, many Catholics here say that condom use should be encouraged by a church whose core doctrine is respect for the sanctity of human life. A similar argument is employed by church officials in allowing the use of contraceptive pills to remedy irregular menstrual cycles, which can affect fertility.

"The bottom line is to be pro-life, consistently pro-life, from conception until death," said Bishop Kevin Dowling of Rustenberg, South Africa, perhaps the best-known Catholic advocate for condom use in South Africa. "We can't save all lives, but we can save some lives through the use of condoms."

...

Supporters of that position contend the South African Catholic Bishops Conference made a similar argument in a 2001 statement stating that condom use by married couples was a matter of conscience in cases where one partner had HIV.

...

But many people lower in the church hierarchy have concluded that the logic of the doctrine for married couples should apply equally to those who are not married or to those who are married but don't know whether they or their spouse have HIV.

Though far from official, this argument has been embraced by a range of South Africa's 3.1 million Catholics. On rare occasions, Catholic-based programs have agreed to allow the distribution of condoms on their premises -- when the senior church officials are not around.

[Terra Nullius]

What you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven. What you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven

The magisterium has authority to make it's own judgements. There is nothing scriptural that forbids the use of condoms.

That prohibition is based purely on theological arguments. I'm not going to try and dispute the soundness of those arguments overall, but it's not like the Church can simply throw it's hands up in the air and say "Oh. Our hands are tied, we can't possibly change it."

A woman with endometriosis or painful and irregular periods can easily get a prescription for the pill, without coming into conflict with official teachings. But it's taken five years for a cardinal to start saying it might, possibly be OK not to infect your partner with AIDS?!!

So sure, I understand (roughly) the arguments against contraception. But the Church also has the authority and the duty to consider any means to lessen the weight of suffering, not to add to it or ignore it.

Re: My Bolding
More significantly, I don't think the Church should allow itself to impede unofficial efforts to make condoms available.

How about an official position that says, broadly
"We're not satisfied with the situation at present. We're looking into it. In the meantime, condoms are an effective prophylactic against disease and we will not obstruct any (unofficial or secular) attempt to make them available to the poorest and most threatened of our brethren."

If I remember the Gospel right, Christ healed whoever came asking for help. He didn't first subject them to inquisition.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS
What would you have the church do? Teach that it's OK to do evil? You'll be waiting a long, long time.

Yeah, like they never taught evil before. Slavery is okay. Women should be subordinate to men. Democracy is against God's will.

[Kuciwalker]

A woman with endometriosis or painful and irregular periods can easily get a prescription for the pill, without coming into conflict with official teachings. But it's taken five years for a cardinal to start saying it might, possibly be OK not to infect your partner with AIDS?!!

To be fair, it took a while for the former to become accepted.

[Flip McWho]

As does anything in the Church really

[MRT144]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Slavery is okay. Women should be subordinate to men. Democracy is against God's will.

this catholicism is look better and better day by day.