Introduction of May Day in US through immigrant protests

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DanS
God forbid that after you leftists have screwed over your country, you should endeavor to screw over mine.

Yep, the leftists have screwed us over.

On the other hand the right-wing has absolutely f*cked us over.

Do the politicial tendencies of the region turning left in the last 5-10 years mean anything to you at all? People are sick of all the neoliberal crap which has been preached to us, a pathetic blind and dogmatic faith in that the free market will free everyone for poverty.

As to who screws over your country, frankly I could care less, just as I care less if you make the immigrants citizens or not. I just find the McCarthy-ist paranoia of your first post to be utterly laughable

[DanS]

The free market has served my country well for centuries.

Do whatever you want in Mexico, but it sticks in my craw that I'm being lectured by a leftist from a country with over 5% of its population illegaly in my country because its leftist government couldn't provide for the common good.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DanS
The free market has served my country well for centuries.

Do whatever you want in Mexico, but it sticks in my craw that I'm being lectured by a leftist from a country with over 5% of its population illegaly in my country because its leftist government couldn't provide for the common good.

Fox a leftist????



We haven't had a leftist government since 1982...


I'll gladly "lecture" you once you actually brush up on your knowledge of foreign governments. God knows you market-worshippers could use some lecturing from time to time.

[DanS]

Fox isn't a leftist and I never stated or implied that he was. He's got to try to clean up the mess you leftists left. Tough job, admittedly.

[CrONoS]

Originally posted by BeBro
I'm surprised that the thread title doesn't start with "Let the good times roll:"......

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DanS
Fox isn't a leftist. He's got to try to clean up the mess you leftists left.

The MESS was left by the quite right-wing neoliberal Salinas government who is directly responsible for the 94/95 crisis thanks to his utterly irresponsible financial managment. Oh yeah, then the other right-wing Zedillo government gave us $70 billion in public internal debt to bail out all the rich bankers' yatchs and mansions. Our last two governments have also consolidated monopolies on most major industries (the latest being a repugnant television and radio law signed just weeks ago) which as a consecuence have made Mexico the most expensive country in latinamerica and in the entire OECD with regards to services such as banking, telephony and what not.

Yeah, that's some real cleaning up there...

Get your facts straight then argue, if not, drop it before you make a fool out of yourself "lecturing" us about stuff you don't even know about.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by DanS


You're making a distinction without a difference. In the US, after a certain period of time, permanent residents can apply for citizenship.

we may choose to say that they can not get citizenship unless they leave the country and apply legally.

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
May Day is a traditional American holiday going back to colonial times. It's only in the last century that its celebration has been abandoned. Picture dozens of little blonde girls and boys in white dresses and suits dancing around a big poll while wrapping the ribbons they're holding around the self same pole. Good times, huh?

May Day probably meant something else back then.

[Kuciwalker]

May Day probably meant something else back then.

*whoosh*

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by DanS
The free market has served my country well for centuries.

Do whatever you want in Mexico, but it sticks in my craw that I'm being lectured by a leftist from a country with over 5% of its population illegaly in my country because its leftist government couldn't provide for the common good.

Actually I think that over the past 2 generations we've absorbed about 25% of Mexico's population.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by DanS


Maybe you aren't arguing against this, and if so, I'm at a loss to explain the significance of what you are saying...

What I'm saying is that you are over simplifying the situation. Allowing someone to apply for something is not the same as giving it away. These new applicants aren't being given anything, they are still going to have to qualify just like anyone else. And if they do qualify and are eventually given citizenship (some 7 years later), then what do you have against lawful immigration?

When American politicians talk about permanent residency for illegal aliens, they are meaning that they expect the citizenship rolls to rise accordingly.

And this is simply wrong. Many immigrants do not apply for citizenship after getting permanent residence. Many will apply and not get accepted. Many will lose their green cards and have to leave the country. Others will return home voluntarily. Its like saying all those who apply to Harvard are going to get PhDs.

Citizenship is not easy to get, especially in the United States. In fact, US citizenship is one of the more difficult things you could hope to get. So unless the INS takes some drastic new stance on immigration procedures the citizenship rolls are not going to skyrocket through the roof like you are thinking. And to suggest otherwise is to simply not understand how immigration actually works.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DanS

You're making a distinction without a difference. In the US, after a certain period of time, permanent residents can apply for citizenship.

We're talking a decade of waiting and then they'd only get citizenship if 1) they paid all back taxes and fines related to entering the country illegally and working under the table without paying taxes 2) be crime free for that entire decade of residency 3) must be gainfully employed 4) must pass an English language and US history & costums test.

I'd say if the guys reach those goals then they've definately earned their citizenship. The Senate knows that but the House is completely out to lunch and it seems the rhetoric has infected you as well.

[Dinner]

In an attempt to make something useful out of this thread (which I admit will be difficult) I'd like to float an idea.

What do you think of modifying NAFTA to allow the free movement of labor? We have free movement of goods and the free movement of capital but labor must remain where it is at. Wouldn't it be good for all three countries in NAFTA if the supply of labor (both skilled and unskilled) could move where the demand is highest? DanS keeps talking about the good times rolling and that so many new jobs have been created that we're now at full employment so it would seem that introducing a new supply of fresh workers would be valuable. The US & Canada would benifet for a larger labor pool while Mexico would benifet from decreased unemployment/underemployment and by having access to the larger pools of skilled labor in the US and Canada.

[DanS]

I'd say if the guys reach those goals then they've definately earned their citizenship.

I'm all for making these illegal aliens into citizens. Perhaps you have overread the meaning of my posts.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Oerdin
In an attempt to make something useful out of this thread (which I admit will be difficult) I'd like to float an idea.

What do you think of modifying NAFTA to allow the free movement of labor? We have free movement of goods and the free movement of capital but labor must remain where it is at. Wouldn't it be good for all three countries in NAFTA if the supply of labor (both skilled and unskilled) could move where the demand is highest? DanS keeps talking about the good times rolling and that so many new jobs have been created that we're now at full employment so it would seem that introducing a new supply of fresh workers would be valuable. The US & Canada would benifet for a larger labor pool while Mexico would benifet from decreased unemployment/underemployment and by having access to the larger pools of skilled labor in the US and Canada.

That's a brilliant idea that was the basis of a proposal dubbed "NAFTA-Plus" by the Mexican government ever since Fox got into power. Problem is that 9/11 pretty much squandered any hope that the US would permit entry of so much people which is quite ironic: it would be far more beneficial to have temporary workers legally enter since there would be much greater control of who's actually crossing the border: background checks, criminal records, etc.

Canada has also been rather skeptic at the proposal especially over the accusations of having an even more porous border after 9/11. Canada also already has a guest worker program implemented where mexican workers are hired yearly on a temporary basis to filling labor gaps in their economy.

I have always wondered why the free-market lovers have always pushed for the opening of borders for capital flows yet never for labor flows. It's so diametrically ridiculous that you permit the free flow of one of the two basic factors of production yet shut off the second one. I definitely think that NAFTA, as it is, is a piss poor free trade treaty. It does however have the potential for improvement if it is either reduced (taking into consideration the economic assimetries between the US and its partners, which unlike the EU, are completely unaddressed) or expaned to include labor flows.

[chequita guevara]

May Day is Labor day in every country ion the world except the U.S. and Canada. It would be stupid to assume that just because people have migrated to the U.S. that it's going to lose that association. Ironically, the incident that people around the world remember May Day for occured in Chicago.