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  • What constitutes racism?

    Before you crack open a dictionary, hear me out.

    Racism is something bandied about commonly in public discourse, at least in the United States. It risks, however, being the "new Fascism." To quote Orwell (from his much read essay "Politics and the English Language"),

    The word Fascism has now no meaning except insofar as it signifies "something not desirable."

    ...

    Since you don't know what Fascism is, how can you struggle against Fascism?


    In this light, I'd like to see what people think, exactly, racism means. There are two general "camps" I'm aware of, and they are not neccessarily mutually exclusive. One emphasizes racism in thought - "white people are smarter than black people." Some of these are often considered "innocuous" enough to be non-confrontational, or just humorous by some - "black people can jump higher than white people." I haven't done the research, but I'm willing to bet this isn't true - but how racist is it? Even if it is racist, does calling such things racist "cheapen" the term to the point where it's no longer clear what a fight against racism is fighting against?

    The other consideration of "thought as racism" is, "how conscious must it be?" Here lies the blurry line between racism and "prejudice." I'll be honest; I almost certainly have unconscious prejudice against different peoples. Is that racist?

    After this there is the racism in action argument. Discrimination based on race, of course, is racist. I had a teacher in high school who, during "diversity training," (I know someone's going to laugh at that, but there you have it) told us that racism was the combination of prejudice against a "racial" group and the power to make that prejudice into reality. This directly contradicts the "thought" view of racism as mere prejudice, and it also raises the question of whether minorities can be truly racist - one would think yes, but if a minority lacks power in a social structure, they don't qualify for the "prejudice plus power" formulation of racism.

    Another definition I heard, later on in high school, brings me to my final question. I was told after a history class by other students that the "new definition" of racism was if you, by virtue of race and birth, inherit privilege (which I, as an upper middle class white man, will readily admit), by even so much as having that privilege you are a "tacit racist," racist by default as a white man (or woman) because you benefit from a racist culture, or at the very least a culture with a racist history. I not only denied this to be true - being called a racist hurts, at least for most people - but I questioned their ability to "redefine" the term to suit what appeared to me to be narrow "hip" political aims. So then - whose job is it to define racism? At what point to all these things blur together and become the meaningless insult that Orwell described Fascism as?

    I pose to you, Apolyton, that - if only just this once - you are the arbiters of the definition of racism. What, exactly, is racism, who is a racist, what is the difference between racism and prejudice, and when you step into the real world and don't control the definition anymore - who does? Who should?
    Lime roots and treachery!
    "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

  • #2
    Racism is in every single one of us.

    Prejudice is in every single one of us. How we let that prejudice project in our actions gives us the percentage of how racist we are compared to other racists (everyone else).
    In da butt.
    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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    • #3
      I find it laughable that people who can't even usefully define race seem to think that they can define racism.
      He's got the Midas touch.
      But he touched it too much!
      Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

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      • #4
        I find it also laughable that people make this such a high concept with lots of twiggles and buttons and complicated interface.

        It's really simple. You have prejudice against other person because they are of different race and they might have different cultural bacground -> they behave and carry themselves differently and have an extra flavour to it, something you aren't used to. Take positive attitude and try to understand and appreciate this new thing -> ok. Take negative attitude and correlate these different flavours with overall negative thoughts -> real prejudice.

        Show taht in your actions -> racism.

        It's really simple. If you treat other people who are different from you, clearly different in race and stuff and culture, and you treat them very diffenretly with negative thoughts, then you are having a racist seizure!

        If you act racist ones, it doesn't mean you are A racist. When you do that on consistent basis, then yes.
        In da butt.
        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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        • #5
          I disagree that there need be a negative opinion or connotation for the sort of thing you describe. I live in a pretty white (and very liberal) town. There are very few African-Americans here. About 12 years ago a black guy moved into the apartment across the hall from me. He and I hit it off pretty well and became good friends. He used to complain to me that people in Boulder were too nice to him, almost desperate to make friends or at least make him like them. One of the things he liked about me was that I just treated him like anyone else. He trusted me because of this and was able to be himself with me, and as luck would have it we got along famously because of characteristics and interests we shared. Too bad he ended up moving back to NYC, I miss him.
          He's got the Midas touch.
          But he touched it too much!
          Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

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          • #6
            I would propose that the best working definition of race is constructivist and subjective - that is, if I believe you are a different race than I am, and I discriminate against you based on that percieved race (or do another activity / think another thing described as racist), I am racist. It's best to stay away from imprecise definitions of "historical" race, as there never really has been a period in which race was anything other than constructed. Thus, arguing things like "hispanics are a different race than whites" misses the point entirely. They are different if they are constructed as such.
            Lime roots and treachery!
            "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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            • #7
              I'd rather we discard the term racism for anything but genotypical prejudice and use a term like cultural or religious bigotry / prejudice in the vast number of situations where they better describe what is going on.
              He's got the Midas touch.
              But he touched it too much!
              Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

              Comment


              • #8
                Sikander, that's a different thing IMO. That's reverse something, everyone trying to appear they are not racists, even if they are or aren't. It's the PC filter they have and it's shouting them 'appear as a non-racist now!'.

                I don't think that's racism though, or reverse racism or what ever.

                It's just poor self image and being .. too self observant versus the society and standards of that society.
                In da butt.
                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                • #9
                  And if I lived in there and the black guy asked me something, the first thing I'd think is 'hey he's black'. Not that it matters. But it would be something coming to my head first. That's not racism. That's not even prejudice.

                  It's normal. Cultural backgrounds, if you are living in all-white, all-black, all-whatever, then the one different will naturalyl stand out. Proper treatment of course is to let them blend and not make it a big deal. Yes.
                  In da butt.
                  "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                  THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                  "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                  • #10
                    Except in a very few instances, I suspect that racism is mostly a convenient construct whipped together by people with an axe to grind.

                    It's a lot easier to "play the race card" than it is to talk about the root of the problem, whatever it might be.

                    Not saying that racism (as defined (by me, for purposes of this discussion) as exclusionary or predatory practices based solely on skin pigmentation or ancestral heritage) doesn't exist, I'm just saying that I suspect that in the greater bulk of cases, what is called "racism" is merely a convenient cover for "I don't agree with, or like what you're saying, but rather than sit down and think seriously about it, I'll just save myself time, pat myself on the back, and label you a racist."

                    It's effective, too, because the moment this happens, TONS of people come running to the fence. Great way to draw attention and inflame what could otherwise be a civilized debate, and a convenient cover for the fact that the name-caller now doesn't have to think.

                    (Take the posting of a comedic piece, to use an example. Far more entertaining to brand the poster as a "bigot" or a "racist" than to simply say you didn't think it was funny, and move on. Gets lots more attention to do it the other way, and once the card has been played, then there's less worry that someone will think there's something "wrong with" your sense of humor....which is silly anyways, since humor is such a subjective thing).

                    -=Vel=-
                    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pekka
                      Sikander, that's a different thing IMO. That's reverse something, everyone trying to appear they are not racists, even if they are or aren't. It's the PC filter they have and it's shouting them 'appear as a non-racist now!'.

                      I don't think that's racism though, or reverse racism or what ever.

                      It's just poor self image and being .. too self observant versus the society and standards of that society.
                      The effect, while better than being hated, was still dehumanizing. People saw this guy as a "black guy" rather than a guy, even if they didn't hate him for it.

                      (edit.. And they treated him different after they met him, so it isn't just the case where they recognized his racial background, they continued to treat him differently.)
                      He's got the Midas touch.
                      But he touched it too much!
                      Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Right, right, exactly. I didn't say that was a good thing. There's kind of no point when you be overly attentive and what not, then you are again putting someone on a stand and saying 'hey you're different'. If you are different than the rest in some ways, if you don't bring it up, it means you don't want to bring it up because it's not an issue people should be concerned about. It's like offering a fat man cakes all the time. You know not that being of different race is comparable to being fat, or disadvantage or anything, just saying that a fat man who stands out in the crowd does not want to be treated differently. Even if the treatment 'would be nice'.
                        In da butt.
                        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                        • #13
                          The society does not accept the idea that children are guilty of the crimes commited by their parents, therefore the concept of tacit racism is not acceptable.

                          It can be added that you cannot, in the same discussion about racism, comment expessions adding qualification to the world racism. When racism is qualified, it is no longer racism (as in tacit racism, for instance); and if you decide that the world racism is equal to the expression tacit racism, the meaning of sentences including the world racism becomes unclear.

                          In the same line of though, Albert CAMUS wrote : Mal nommer les choses, c'est accroître le malheur du monde (improperly naming things increases the misfortune of the world).
                          Statistical anomaly.
                          The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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                          • #14
                            Where's Cali?
                            www.my-piano.blogspot

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                            • #15
                              davout, I have no idea what you just said.
                              In da butt.
                              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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