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**Jon Miller** · April 11, 2006, 23:53

No, it means that you don't beleive in an active God.

Jon Miller

**Dinner** · April 12, 2006, 00:14

I say again that if people think the Bible is the literal word of god then they're fooling themselves. I didn't say there was no room for there to be a god but their holy book most certainly isn't directly from god.

**Vesayen** · April 12, 2006, 01:10

It is dated to the year 250 CE or so, no? That does not make it real by any means..... then again, who knows if any of the gospels are true? Being Jewish, I doubt anything supernatural in all of them lol.

If it makes any devout christians feel better, I have some serious doubts over the historical accuracy of alot of the Torah.... most of my gripes are in Genesis and a few in Exodus... the rest is mostly historically plausible.

Yes, obviously Historical Plausibility of the Torah is > then the Historical Plausibility of the Gospels.

Discuss.

**alva** · April 12, 2006, 01:45

Does it really matter if it's written 50 years or a 100, or even 500 years later?
It's inacurate...period.
(That's putting it nicely, not to offend anyone.

)

btw, What's CE ? Catholic Era?

**Ted Striker** · April 12, 2006, 01:51

Gnostic texts

Rufus Ghandi quote about Christians and Christianity

**DRoseDARs** · April 12, 2006, 01:57

Re: Gospel of Judas

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Anyone see the National Geographic Channel's show on this? I found it rivetting.

I assumed the show was going to be about some scam -- a fake gospel and all that. Turn out the gospel was real

and that a ancient copy has been found and translated.

I didn't know that in the early Christian days, there were over 30 gospels. The Gospel of Judas was one of the Gnostic gospels that was eventually repressed as part of the reduction to just the four: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The Gospel of Judas doesn't end with -- or even mention -- the Cruxifiction and Resurrection.

Rather, according to it, Jesus preached that He (like everyone) has a devine spark inside him. The gospel ends with Judas turning Jesus over to the Romans so that His "spark" could be released.

In another part of the show, there was just a brief reference to a very bizarre passage. According to the Gospel, at one point, eleven of the disciples (not Judas) were getting ready pray to the Creator. Jesus laughed at them. Jesus explained to Judas that the Creator was a god who was not really powerful and was nothing compared to the God who ruled all. This passage makes this version of Christianity sound almost like a polytheistic religion.

Anyone else see this and care to comment?

There's actually quite a few gospels that, for one reason or another (usually Church politics/dogma) over the centuries, were left out of the Bible we now know. I wouldn't be suprised if there actually were a Gospel of Jesus in His own words that once The Church (now modern-day Catholicism) became the dominant religion in post-Roman Europe purposely left out and supressed. Never fall into the mental trap of believing the Bible is anything but the work of Men. This is well-documented fact that Men wrote down the words and bound the books. Like I've always said, "God does not own a printing press." And yes, Pekka, I'm fairly confident I came up with that one myself.

Men have interjected their own thoughts and beliefs (as well as coopting them from others) in the Bible and likewise have left things out they didn't like. An excellent book to read on the subject is Helen Ellerbe's The Dark Side of Christian History.

**Jon Miller** · April 12, 2006, 01:58

CE is common era

the only place I have seen it used extensively in is theology texts..

JM

**Jon Miller** · April 12, 2006, 02:38

The 4 canonical gospels were all written in the first ~100 years after Christ's death.

As in, we have fragements that date to ~100 years of Christ's death (so it seems likely that they were written in the first 20-50 years after His death to me).

Many of these additional gospels, the fragments are newer...

Also, many of this gospels, are obviously products of different groups, like followers of Mani...

Additionally a number of ideas are linked with pre Christ nonjewish thought, which suggests that they are not from Christ.

I am interested in this, and wish that the Catholics would open up their libraries... but seeing how everyone seems to be going crazy after these other gospels, I can see why they do not wish to.

Note that Gnosticism and the like didn't lose until ~400 AD.

Basically, those who say that these are the correct versions are not looking at the historical situation. Those who suggest that these tell more about the historical situation, and give other [i]nonChristian[/] perspectives are being logical. And I agree that there is a possibility that they are right, but to claim that they have more veracity than the canonical scriptures is not supported by any evidence.

Jon Miller

**Jon Miller** · April 12, 2006, 02:42

btw, have any of you read about Irenaeus?

I was reading about him in wiki (I know.. I know) and he apparently beleived some nonOrthodox things I was not aware of

like that Christ lived here on earth until he was 50... and that the point of humans being on this earth is for us to mature as a species.. (that idea is a 'liberal' theological idea now)

Jon Miller

**Vesayen** · April 12, 2006, 03:12

Originally posted by alva
Does it really matter if it's written 50 years or a 100, or even 500 years later?
It's inacurate...period.
(That's putting it nicely, not to offend anyone.

)

btw, What's CE ? Catholic Era?

Current or common era.

After the year 0 on the current calender.

It ain't the year of *my* lord.

**Pekka** · April 12, 2006, 03:23

That's pretty cool stuff...

didn't they find some new gospel lately? Or was that da vinci code claim?

This is either da vinci code or news, I can't remember which one.. but they said that they've found out from new findings and what not, that Judas was actually a hero, and that it wasn't his JUdas's fault and that Jesus actually said that this is not your fault and you will be blamed by everyone even though you did nothing and you will be seen as a traitor. And that he wasn't a traitor at all, but he had to carry the role of the traitor forever. So that he didn't do the actual deeds, let Jesus down and all.

I don't know I found it interesting.

**Jon Miller** · April 12, 2006, 03:35

they found 'recently' (last 50 years) the gospel of Judas

which was that Judas did what was correct, sorta like the Last Temptation...

it is a pretty obvious idea, and I would be surprised if someone in the early church had not had it (in particular with all the different ideas going arround)

it is at odds with Paulian Christianity (I am throwing in Paulian there becuase some always point out that christianity would be called differently today if people thought differently long ago...) which has been Christianity for over 1600 years

Jon Miller

**Jon Miller** · April 12, 2006, 03:36

personally I find the other early heresies much more interesting than the ones in the gnostic family, as those are so obviously influenced by outside thought

JM

**Alexander's Horse** · April 12, 2006, 04:09

the modern world is fascinated by Judas, for obvious reasons..

**Urban Ranger** · April 12, 2006, 05:03

Originally posted by Vesayen
Current or common era.

After the year 0 on the current calender.

There's no year 0 I'm afraid

1 CE followed 1 BCE.

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