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Education and labor in the modern world

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  • Education and labor in the modern world

    I suppose I've matured a bit over the years; there was once a time when I heard about what goes on in third-world sweatshops and was shocked only by the inhumanity of it. Now I'm wondering if the whole system isn't bad for us too.

    Picture, if you will, a Spanish class at my college. My class. I'm one of the few students who actually learns the language; I'd estimate about two-thirds of the class is just scraping by, memorizing vocab by rote at the last minute before a test and putting the words in order in the most halting and mechanistic fashion imaginable. I used to think that they just weren't trying, and that might be part of the answer, but part of it is (I suspect) that most of these kids just don't have much of an aptitude for language. They might have talents, but learning languages is not one of them, and this same type of student can be found in pretty much every class.

    They can understand the material in a functional way, after immense effort, but never well enough to really use it. They stay quiet in class, never asking questions, just taking notes furiously and trying to slap them together in a recognizable way on the next test or essay. They scrape and stumble their way through college with passing grades...and when they get out, then what? I imagine either they do something they've been "educated" for, albeit very poorly, or else they take a general-purpose crap job. Why did they need a lengthy and expensive college education they didn't even understand?

    I'm told that the vast majority of jobs in the U.S. today require a college education of some sort. I don't see why though. Your average person is not going to benefit from being inundated with the most extraordinary discoveries of Western thought, because the average person is not at all extraordinary. I don't mean to denigrate people who aren't as smart as I am (false modesty and banter aside, I know I'm pretty sharp overall), but literature, science, mathematics, philosophy--it all flies over their heads. They just aren't equipped to handle it, as far as I can tell. They might be able to recite some vague Cliff-notes synopsis of it later, but they don't engage the material. The only benefit they get from college seems to be the emotional maturing and discipline. Those they can use, but you don't need to spend tens of thousands of dollars a year to get that.

    I know I'm pretty ignorant on economic matters, but I don't know that much production of tangible things gets done here. Those get outsourced overseas, where they can be done for lower wages and without the expenses incurred by obeying U.S. labor laws. So we don't actually make much of anything ourselves...what do we do then? Presumptively something more intellectual, but like I've said, not everyone has the ability to really prosper in intellectual work.

    Some people, to be blunt, just aren't too clever. In terms of job skills, the main difference between some of my Spanish classmates and your typical Mexican migrant worker is that the Mexican can actually speak Spanish. This seems to apply across the board, too; Hegel, Darwin, Locke, Bernoulli, Tennyson, Adam Smith, whatever the class is teaching, it'll be wasted on about sixty percent of the students in it. A classical lib arts education can do a lot to stimulate some minds to think flexibly--I know it's helped me a lot--but for every person that benefits, there are two who don't understand and don't care. I'm sure I sound horribly snobby, but really...don't we need to have jobs available for the slower people too? You don't need to have detailed knowledge of a dozen different fields to do a specific task and do it well.

    Mind you, the average Polytubbie--given our common interest here--is probably not in that class of person who can't use higher education. We're a bunch of strategy-game nerds, for crying out loud.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    I think you are being elitist

    JM
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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    • #3
      No, just honest. Not everyone is a freaking genius. Some people are in fact dumber than others. In my experience, the people who don't really understand the material don't "engage" it, as the newspeak goes. Learning doesn't appear to stimulate their minds, it's just a job they slog through for completion's sake. The four or so years and thousands of dollars they spent to do so are basically wasted, it seems. They could have spent that time gaining workforce experience and moving up the ladder doing a specific task. There's nothing shameful about honest work. Especially when the alternative is such an extravagant waste. Does it make them happier, or more effective in whatever job they eventually wind up doing?
      1011 1100
      Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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      • #4
        Yes, and I know that. And in physics, for example, a lot of people are unable to get past certain concepts (just can't handle the mathematical thinking, I think). This does not mean that they are dumb, they often have other skills. And it is nice to get everyone some understanding of physics, so even if it is not their area, and they just have some stuff memorized, and some idea of what goes on. It is still valuable for them. (I am thinking particularly of PreMed/Bio/Chem and Engineering students who take physics and dont' really 'understand' as you say, but physics is still valuable for them). I think it is similiarly true in other areas that aren't physics (but I don't know those areas as well).

        Jon Miller
        Jon Miller-
        I AM.CANADIAN
        GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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        • #5
          Basically, I am saying, just because they can't be really good at something. And they don't truly understand it, doesn't mean that they are lost on it.

          And generally it ahs nothing to do with what they are capable of (although sometimes it does), often it is because they aren't that interested in it (they are more interested in biology for example) and wonder what good it really does them. This is especially true in liberal art classes. But if in the future they come to some point in time they want to think about such things. They may remember what they learned (surfacely) and be able to go back over it and understand it at a deeper level. Or at least be aware that such things, ideas, knowledge exists.

          Jon Miller
          Jon Miller-
          I AM.CANADIAN
          GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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          • #6
            Really? Valuable how? How do they use it? A broad education, for somebody with the head for it, teaches flexible and multifaceted thinking by forcing you to look at life from several different perspectives. For someone who doesn't, well, it appears to be an accumulation of trivia you can pull out later for games or to impress someone, assuming you remember it. There's no clean demarcation between "types" of people as such, but I don't think the majority of people in college benefit from such an exhaustive education.
            1011 1100
            Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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            • #7
              No

              there is some chance that they might remember what they learned in physics class

              and be able to apply it in every day life

              even if they didn't truly 'understand' what is going on

              so yes, valuable

              beleive me, I have heard your argument before (as have many other teachers), all the premed, biology, chemistry, even engineering students whining about why they have to take physics classes

              it is valuable for them, knowledge of electricity, force, the universe being explainable in mathematical terms, (newtonian) gravity, friction, light, waves... all bare some part in the world we live in

              and if they don't need to know something now, and so don't really understand it (because they don't care about it), the building blocks will be there for later, if (generally when, I think) they do need to understand it

              once you have done something once, even if you didn't do it well (or truly understand it), the paths are laid, and it is easier to go back to it

              I can see this in my life recently, I am playing piano again

              and trying both new songs, and onces I last played a decade ago.. and the ones I last played a decade ago come back very fast.. but the new ones I have to learn slowly

              Jon Miller
              Jon Miller-
              I AM.CANADIAN
              GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

              Comment


              • #8
                That's very nice. Is this later knowledge worth spending thousands of dollars and years of your life on? Do you need it to succeed in life? I mean, do the vast majority of jobs need this knowledge to be done properly? Do the advantages gained by this knowledge outweigh the benefits of several years of on-the-job experience at whatever one's career is?

                I have a brother who's a mechanic. He's not dumb by any means--nobody with my mother's genes could be--but he's a perfect example of someone who doesn't profit from broad education. His mind is geared very strongly towards the specific; he's quite happily ignorant of broad, overarching trends and themes, and knows it. Being concretely grounded in the here and now, he's a lousy philosopher but he can fix cars quickly and reliably.

                He got lame grades in HS but did pretty well for himself working at a bike shop doing fixups. He went to college, spent a couple of semesters in heavy drinking, and flunked out. He then decided to play to his strengths (this is his own account) and went to Lincoln Technical Institute, where he endured several hours of lectures on how this is an Otto-type four-stroke engine cylinder and it was invented in blahblahblah.

                He figured out pretty early on that ninety percent of it wasn't useful to him, but he sat through it. He then went to work for a mechanic, who confirmed that he didn't know jack. However, the mechanic could tell he had a knack for machine work, or else believed him when he said he did, and started him off doing basic tasks like changing oil. A few years have passed since then, and he's now making a very comfortable living fixing transmissions and the like.

                His is not a sophisticated existence; he spends most of his extra money on whitewater rafting and skiing, or on DVDs and electronics in general. He's recently moved to a house near Vail, CO, where he'll be able to fix rich people's cars and have much closer access to the ski slopes. He won't advance terribly far in his life, but he's quite happy where he is.

                Is my brother such a very rare case, or could his life have been better if he'd really buckled down and learned about photosynthesis and Chaucer? I'm not just talking about mechanics, either. Say an office job, using spreadsheets or databases or photoshop, what-have-you. That's a specific task requiring specific knowledge, and you don't neccessarily have to be an egghead to do it well. Plenty of people support themselves through life doing that kind of thing, and it's purely hands-on. All they need to "know" as such can be learned in six months' training. The rest is just lots of practice and experience. A college education just makes them start a few years later with student loans to pay off.
                1011 1100
                Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                • #9
                  Well, I've said this in a number of threads, but I'll say it again here: most jobs that require their employees to be college graduates do not, in fact, actually need employees with a college education. And I think colleges and education broadly are moving to acknowledge this reality. The rise of the two-year AA degree and of the university "certificate" curricula are both ways in which institutions are acknowledging that, frankly, it's better off for everyone involved if some people are not educated, but merely trained.
                  "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

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                  • #10
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                    • #11
                      these 'liberal arts' courses are just required electives (does that make sense? required electives?). Everyone needs an art credit and some history credits and so forth so these students just sit through that crap half-interested. should they do anything else? If you're not a sociology major, why should you sit through Intro to Sociology, a class that every university has like four 250+ student lecture hall courses a semester in because just about every incoming freshman has to take it... you just sit through it and pass it and move on to your major.

                      what the hell good is Chaucer or Intro to Psychology to someone majoring in engineering or finance or pharmacy? Can you expect students to be interested in those things?
                      "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
                      "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

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                      • #12
                        I majored in biology, yet I happily took courses in art, music, psychology, sociology, logic, literature, writing, history, etc. in addition to bio, chem, physics & math. I just wanted to learn stuff. Sure, I could've focused on bio & science and nothing but, but one reason you go to college is to learn things. Most of my extra courses were electives, but I have no regrets in taking them.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Albert Speer
                          these 'liberal arts' courses are just required electives (does that make sense? required electives?). Everyone needs an art credit and some history credits and so forth so these students just sit through that crap half-interested. should they do anything else? If you're not a sociology major, why should you sit through Intro to Sociology, a class that every university has like four 250+ student lecture hall courses a semester in because just about every incoming freshman has to take it... you just sit through it and pass it and move on to your major.

                          what the hell good is Chaucer or Intro to Psychology to someone majoring in engineering or finance or pharmacy? Can you expect students to be interested in those things?
                          There are plenty of people in the world who want to do their job, come home, have a beer, and watch tv for the rest of the night.

                          And there are people who don't. People who might be engineers, accountants, or pharmacists, but still want to understand poetry, philosophy, theology, history, even sociology -- just because they have active minds. Just because they have an honest interest in the wide, wide world. Just because they'er sure there must be more to the human condition that feeding, reproduction, and death.

                          What good is Chaucer to an engineering major? Well, one of my closest friends in college was a brilliant engineer and one of the most astute critics of Melville I've ever met. Why Melville? No idea. I'm sure her insights into Melville didn't do jack squat for her engineering career. But I know she remains the least boring, most thoughtful engineer I've ever met (not that the bar is very high in that contest, but still).
                          "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Albert Speer
                            what the hell good is Chaucer or Intro to Psychology to someone majoring in engineering or finance or pharmacy? Can you expect students to be interested in those things?
                            Any democratic society will fail if the electorate is not educated. Overspecialization (which is already a problem) leads to bad decision making...people who consider themselves intelligent and educated, but who have no specific education in a given area, tend to overestimate the values of their own opinions when it comes to areas outside their spheres. Among other things, this can make them easily manipulated, and then you just end up with W. in office, and who really wants that? (Ok, I might have made the last part up, but the principle stands.)

                            Education is required not for a person's role in the economy, but for their role in society.
                            "In the beginning was the Word. Then came the ******* word processor." -Dan Simmons, Hyperion

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                            • #15
                              I agree but what sense does it make to force people who aren't interested in these clases to take these classes? they are called ELECTIVES though they are often required.

                              there are many people to whom college is just an advanced trade school... A & M's and Tech's.
                              "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
                              "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

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