Help the Islamic World - Contribute!

[MonwarH]

I am a larker in this group, mostly. I see many people here talking against Islam and Islamic culture, sometimes rationally, sometimes irrationally. I see most of the discussion focused on the Western perspective.

I live in Bangladesh - a 'semi-Islamic' country. I spread my message of tolerance and freedom. I myself am an agnostic, but when I approach the grassroot level, I have to adopt to the rituals and beliefs of religion. I face risk in what I am doing. There are societal and career based consequences - Bangladesh is too liberal to have legal consequences. I have had many positive results. I have had very heated debates with Islamists which has left me feel soiled.

I ask myself - why do I do all these? Of course, for my own fulfillment, to spread what I believe is right. Over the times, my belief structure has modified and adjusted with this experience too. In fact, I have become more passive over time, as the effort exerts a lot and I believe liberal people need a large amount of 'background', people must reach a stage by themself, a stage of enlightenment, to appreciate liberal values. As Orwell said, 'To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle'.

So why am I telling you these? I am upset at Westerners. I don't see them contributing positively in this environment. They make too many mistakes, they take us (often, all of us, all) as too uncouth, too backward. Yes, all of it is my perception of course. But I request all of you to learn more about the Islamic World and try to come to their level and then let them about the fruits of freedom you so selfishly enjoy. Give 'us' a chance, because if I and people like me lose, you will face the consequences.

If I am too serious, too gloomy, too judgmental and too simplistic in the message, then I am sincerely sorry. I am just frustrated by this lack of support. People always want to be on the safe side. If you want to be like that, if you are not assertive, if you are just going with the crowd, there will be no development for ther human race.

This message is not over. I will continue the discussion. I will try and tell you what YOU can do, if you are interested. I will show you the approach, if you want.

I will end with Russell's immortal quote:

'The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts'.

[Provost Harrison]

The fact is, that if you want freedom in your country, you cannot rely on the imperial interests of the west to fulfil it...look at Iraq. You need to take things into your own hands and make a stand, both against fundamentalism and the exploitation that occurs...the people of the west are not your enemy in this.

[germanos]

It's odd that you as an agnostic stands up for the Islamic World. (not that there is one)

[MonwarH]

I consider myself a 'cultural muslim', if that means anything to you.

[germanos]

Originally posted by MonwarH
I consider myself a 'cultural muslim', if that means anything to you.

Frankly: No.

How does this relatate to your agnosticism?

[MonwarH]

It doesn't relate to my agnosticism. To me, a + gnosis = 'without knowledge' as regards theology. I will explain it further if required, but for our discussion, this much should suffice, hopefully.

The concept of cultural muslim has all to do with the societal, and 'namesake', cultural portion of my society, in that, as I said, I often have to follow religious rituals in fear of people misinterpreting me.

I represent my society - I am a Bangladeshi 'Muslim' in that sense, culturally. When forms ask of my religion, I tick Muslim (sunni) (there are no fields for atheists or agnostics BTW).

[germanos]

Originally posted by MonwarH
It doesn't relate to my agnosticism. To me, a + gnosis = 'without knowledge' as regards theology. I will explain it further if required, but for our discussion, this much should suffice, hopefully.

The concept of cultural muslim has all to do with the societal, and 'namesake', cultural portion of my society, in that, as I said, I often have to follow religious rituals in fear of people misinterpreting me.

I represent my society - I am a Bangladeshi 'Muslim' in that sense, culturally. When forms ask of my religion, I tick Muslim (sunni) (there are no fields for atheists or agnostics BTW).

Well, that brings us to the heart of the matter immediately:
How can I help the Islamic world to accept agnostics, christians, jews and any other people without them fearing the muslims of faith, dragging them into their rituals out of fear of being misinterpreted?

To that I would heartily give my contribution.

[Cort Haus]

MonwarH, to what extent do you find that Islam, as you understand it, permits agnosticism, atheism and other religions?

In pre-enlightenment Europe, Christianity had a similar perspective to contemporary Islamism in its reluctance to permit other worldviews. It also seems to me that at the height of it's scientific crest, the ancient muslim world was more 'liberal' than the straight-jacket of medieval Christian Europe.

What I do wonder about, though, is the notion of secular space, or lack of it, in the Islamic worldview. Does Islam, in your view, come 'bundled' with a system of government? Sharia Law scares the pants off most Westerners, and with good reason. We would probably be a lot more relaxed about Islam if this percieved threat of Sharia Law, backed by regular bombs, wasn't hanging over us. How many muslims world wide seek the scary World Caliphate, and how many think "you do your thing, we'll do ours"?

{edit : grammatical clarification}

[Vince278]

Re: Help the Islamic World - Contribute!

Originally posted by MonwarH
Of course, for my own fulfillment, to spread what I believe is right.

And to hinder others that spread what they believe is wrong. You must give respect before you can earn it.

I have lived in the Islamic world for about a year (over 20 years ago) and own a copy of the Quran yet I'm not sure how we can reach an understanding when so few on either side is willing to listen. Ideas?

[MonwarH]

Cort Haus - Islam doesn't permit agnosticism, athiesm or any other faith for that matter. Even now an Afghan might be hanged for converting to Christianity. Shari'ah is the real culprit here.

Ancient Muslim World was a bit more liberal due to their affluence. Again, that liberalism was not guranateed as one clerics fatwa could still kill all the 'liberals'.

Vince - Perhaps I have promised in my original post more than I can deliver. My bad.

Regarding talking to the other side, there are ENOUGH sensible Muslims out there. Go for an internet search. If you search enough you will find one in any Islamic country who can work as a partner of understanding and exchange.

[Dinner]

Marx got just about everything wrong but one thing he got right is that religion has surely caused more pain, suffering, and death then any other thing in the history of the world. I wish men had never invented religions.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by MonwarH
Islam doesn't permit agnosticism, athiesm or any other faith for that matter.

Sounds genocidal.

[Flip McWho]

I don't see the culturally muslim bit. You're culturally Bangladesh[ian], religiously agnostic. Muslim is a religion. The problem is that people fuddle these differences. It's like saying the West is Christian. We're not but thanks for the generalisation.

Also it depends on what you mean by Islamic World. If you're talking about the various governments of what could be classed as Islamic states (again a definition problem, maybe states that have a majority of Muslims or just happen to be around the middle eastern region) then I'm quite happily opposed. I've yet to see any government in the Islamic World thats worthy of actually being there. If you're talking about the people then hey they're just people. Like you and me, just in different circumstances, maybe a little too much into their religion. But then theres people in the west that are very similar, our governments just don't reflect this (or shouldn't) as much. But then theres government in the west that don't deserve to be there either.

I kinda agree that the people must reach a "stage of enlightenment" but again I don't see any government within an Islamic World that is aiding this or any organisation.

Here I'd just like to add that if the resistance in Iraq were smart, they'd get the country organised, peace like and then wave good bye as the yanks lose their reason for remaining there. The resistance as much as their goal is to remove the yanks they're pretty much ensuring they stay on.

Basically who do you want me to support?

A statement like this:

I am upset at Westerners. I don't see them contributing positively in this environment. They make too many mistakes, they take us (often, all of us, all) as too uncouth, too backward.

Can be flipped around.
"I am upset at Muslims. I don't see them contributing positively in this environment. They make too many mistakes, they take us (often, all of us, all) as too Christian, anti muslim and imperialistic.

The problem with the Islamic World is their governments and the tie with religion. Though we (particulary America) aren't the people that should be blundering in there trying to fix it.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by MonwarH
I consider myself a 'cultural muslim', if that means anything to you.

It does . I know exactly what you mean . And I know the difficulties you will face . You are the only type of person capable of bringing about lasting change in the Islamic world , and that is why you and your type will be bitterly resisted everywhere the clerics hold sway . You must realise , however , that outsiders cannot help you beyond a point - their contribution cannot be significant in the long run .

I here bring up the example of India's help to Bangladesh during your war of independence against the genocidal Pakistanis . We could help you to achieve freedom and democracy , but it is up to people like you to preserve them . We cannot do that for you . Good luck to you - because you will need all that you can get .

[Ted Striker]

Well, regardless of the poster's content, it's good to see people outside of Europe, North America, NZ/AUS posting on here.