Shocking news!!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Wow... that was MtG like pwnage by JohnT there.

[Last Conformist]

Isn't that what politics are supposed to be about?

[JohnT]

Here we go... some old (1998) figures, but still taking account of the XOM merger (and, apparently, the just announced Chevron-Texaco merger):

COMPANY WORLDWIDE OIL PRODUCTION
Million barrels per year, 1998

Name amount produced.

Saudi Arabian Oil Co.* 3028
Petroleos Mexicanos* 1278
Petroleos de Venezuela* 1258
China National Petroleum* 1168
BP Amoco + Arco 963
ExxonMobil 894
Royal Dutch/Shell 859
Nigerian National Oil Co.* 772
Iraq National Oil Co.* 770
Kuwait Petroleum* 757
Chevron + Texaco 756

http://www.gravmag.com/oil2.html

I think that pre-consolidation (I could go check and run the numbers, but I'm going to rely upon my instincts here) there wasn't a single US oil company to be numbered among the worlds 10 largest.

After all, Mobil was the third largest US oil producer when they merged with the US' largest oil producer... all to create just the sixth-largest oil company on the planet.

****, 82% of all oil production and refineries are done by State owned businesses, not private companies. Go complain about Petroleos Mexicanos when you're next in the mood to complain about "big oil."

[Dinner]

Originally posted by JohnT
Uh, not quite. The problem with refineries is not that there "aren't any" but that they're concentrated in LA and TX... where Katrina hit.

Who the hell said there aren't any refineries? That's a lovely straw man you've constructed. I said that the main problem is the tight supply of oil (I.E. demand for oil is rising faster then the supply of oil) so how does that equal there "aren't any" refineries in the US?

To actually deal with the issue of refining we most certainly are experiencing a situation where not only is the price of crud going up due to the above supply/demand issue but we're also short on refining capacity so each of the refineries does have greater pricing leverage. That's why it would be a good idea to preserve as much competition between them as possible by preventing consolidation to the degree which is practical.

[Dinner]

Also I don't recall ever posting anything supportive of this dog and pony show so I'd appriciate you not trying to pretend I did.

[JohnT]

Let me quote what you said:

"That said the mergers have lowered the amount of competition especially in the refining business and that does harm consumers."

Yeah, you're right - the "aren't any" comment was a bit overdone and not meant to be taken literally - HENCE THE QUOTES.

But the clause you wrote is based on the belief/assumption that the lack of refining capacity is a result of mergers... it's not.

And I'm not "pretending" anything - I'm just responding to your post, attempting to keep my response in context with the thread topic. If you take it as a personal affront... whatever.

[Dinner]

No, you got it wrong again. I didn't say that the lack of excess refining capacity had anything to do with mergers. My argument has been that currently we have a lack of refining capacity so it is a good idea to preserve as much competition as possible by taking a hard look at current and future mergers.

Why don't you try asking people what their point is rather then attempting to tell them what their point is? You've done that twice and been wrong both times.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Oerdin
No, you got it wrong again. I didn't say that the lack of refining capacity had anything to do with mergers. My argument has been that currently we have a lack of refining capacity so it is a good idea to preserve as much competition as possible by taking a hard look at current and future mergers.

You said:

the mergers have lowered the amount of competition especially in the refining business

I'm not making this quote up - it's right there, five+ posts above this one.

If you want to revise your argument, fine - edit the post. I'll edit my responses accordingly... or not.

[Dinner]

Yes, as in recent mergers have lowered competetion in many local markets because they're now fewer independents. By definition if you have fewer companies doing business in a given field then you have less competition. You can say that the lessened competition hasn't harmed consumers but I think most people would agree that less competition does harm consumers in the long run especially when supplies are tight.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by JohnT

If you want to revise your argument, fine - edit the post. I'll edit my responses accordingly... or not.

I added the word "excess" to my post before you ever even posted a response. Other then that no changes were made.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by JohnT
No competition? There are 60 oil refining and producing companies in the US. I'm looking at a chart that lists the number of companies involved in the importing of oil and petroleum products during the month of December, 2005 - I got to 39 companies before I reached "D".

JohnT forget about oil producing companies and oil importing companies...I'll grant you that point. Do you have figures on oil refining companies? I'm under the impression that there are only 6 of these in the U.S.