Proof that the UN is evil

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You are willing to throw our rights under the bus for anything, aren't you? Some defender of Constitutional rights you turned out to be .

our right to go to the other side of the world to take up arms against the United States?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Our right to have a speedy trial. Hamdi is a US citizen. His rights are our rights. So is Padilla a US citizen.

[Whoha]

Are you talking about the guy with dual US-Saudi citizenship or Lindh?

[DinoDoc]

Seems like a waste of effort. Let the strike continue to one of its predetermined conclusions. Same with the torture allegations. It doesn't get any credible info AFAIK only what the subject thinks the interrogator wants to hear truthfullness be damned. As for Gitmo, I dunno why we'd care one way or the other if the UN says it needs to be shut down but it does seem to be in need of some reforms to improve the quality of intel the interrogations might gather.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hamdi may have dual. I know he did have US citizenship. Padilla had US citizenship. Don't think he had dual.

[DinoDoc]

re Hamdi: Isn't it considered bad form to complain about not having been killed on the battlefield?

[Whoha]

Ibrahim Padilla held US citizenship only, abdul Hamid(lindh, mistakenly thought it was hamdi) is US only, and Yasser Esam Hamdi holds Saudi-US citizenship. Wiki says Yasser was deported to Saudi Arabia in october of 2004.

state department site confirms this:http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/.../13-29070.html

[Berzerker]

OMG! INVASION by Al Queda!! Run for the hills! Barracade yourself!! It's an INVASION people!! We must counter by.... sending our troops to Iraq!

What would you call foreign enemies coming here to kill us other than an invasion? Invasion doesn't require occupation, just entrance. Dont get silly on me again

Your standards for invasion are pretty low, Berz. You are willing to throw our rights under the bus for anything, aren't you? Some defender of Constitutional rights you turned out to be .

Okay, 9/11 wasn't an invasion, it was... an act of war... Gee, an act of war perpetrated on our soil. Sounds like an invasion. And whats this about "our rights", POWs are not afforded the same protections we have.

I assume you now recognise that I'm right about what the Constitution says? You seem to be wandering off into the land of subjectivity.

[Berzerker]

Our right to have a speedy trial. Hamdi is a US citizen. His rights are our rights. So is Padilla a US citizen.

we were talking about Afghan POWs being held at Gitmo.


here we go again

[polarnomad]

So if Guantanamo is serving a legitimate purpose, then why not hold the prisoners in the USA and allow inspectors direct contact with inmates without military supervision?

[Kataphraktoi]

damn my primitive threadkilling attempt failed

[BeBMan]

The second's better, but let's wait and see

Topic: I have to admit that I'm a bit in doubt about some of the allegations. I always remeber what I read about the treatment of RAF terrorists in Germany. There were lots of rumours and accusations flying around, and RAF-sympathizers and supporters were all too willing to believe them and to spread them even more, esp. after Baader et al committed suicide in prison, which was interpreted over a long time as "they were murdered by the state". Today we know that many of those accusations of bad treatment, and especially the "murder" thing, are untrue.

However, the US has maneuvered itself in a position after Abu Ghuraib that makes it quite easy to believe that torture is being done in Gitmo too. But humanitarian aspects aside, I still haven't understood why the US admin is so determined to keep Gitmo, I mean if you try those who are guilty and put them in a "normal" prison they would be still there for interrogation if needed. So why trying to maintain a praxis which costs the US a lot of its reputation. The "war on terror" is IMO also a global war of propaganda but with things like Gitmo you get the impression the US isn't very interested in winning.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Gitmo is like a test ground to see how far can exectuive branch push against the other branches without repercussions. Techincally I don't see that they can do anything else there they couldn't do in normal prisons except torture, or some other hideous stuff forbidden on US soil.

[Arrian]

I just don't think the government knows what to do with the prisoners. They don't really have evidence to use in trial, but they figure if they let 'em out they're releasing enemies (and if they weren't enemies before, they sure are now!). Plus, releasing them means admitting they're innocent, which looks bad. So they just keep them all there and claim it's no big deal.

-Arrian

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Arrian
I just don't think the government knows what to do with the prisoners. They don't really have evidence to use in trial, but they figure if they let 'em out they're releasing enemies (and if they weren't enemies before, they sure are now!). Plus, releasing them means admitting they're innocent, which looks bad. So they just keep them all there and claim it's no big deal.

-Arrian

I'd say that when they get them the trial can certainly be delayed etc... quite a bit and if notheing else they should be bagging in those terrorist with at least some credibility and not just "the taxi driver said so" style captures.

Anyhow "releasing them" might look bad, but it looks nearly as bad as an effective concentration camp (US style though, just torture no executions) in 21st century. Not pretty at all, and surely diplomatic consequences galore.

Just look at this (Is it you that hates the graudian ) well despite of that

"I have always said it is an anomaly, and sooner or later has to be dealt with," the prime minister told a news conference, repeating a comment he made to MPs last November.

on a press conference when meeting with new German Chancellor Merkel for the first time



I mean when he is not afraid to state something like this despite being the closest ally of US, something must be wrong in the power balance there. Gitmo is a diplomatic wound/weakness that wont heal easy.