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  • #31
    Originally posted by Apocalypse

    But consumption taxes are bad for the poor!
    Efficiency and progess is ours one more
    Now that we have the Neutron bomb
    It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
    Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight
    Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
    Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
    Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

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    • #32
      Dead Kennedys

      Btw, IIRC, consumption taxes aren't always bad for the poor. For example, in Israel, fresh produce is exempt of VAT - thus, the rich actually pay a higher percentage of VAT than the poor...
      urgh.NSFW

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      • #33
        Well in the US, fresh produce even without taxes is more expensive than many other meals so the poor don't typically buy them anyway. Consumption taxes have just been typically considered unfair to the poor here and there have been movements to decrease sales taxes and keep hiking income taxes.
        "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
        "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
        "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
        "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

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        • #34
          Well in the US, fresh produce even without taxes is more expensive than many other meals


          urgh.NSFW

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          • #35
            Commies in South American making weed instead of produce is to blame of course
            "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
            "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
            "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
            "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

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            • #36
              whiner!

              Israeli fruit being picked by people from Thailand
              urgh.NSFW

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sandman
                Until el freako turns up:

                3. The EU has a better fiscal situation than the US. More room for borrowing.
                If only it were so. But you've got it the wrong way 'round.

                Well, we all should be ashamed, but the US slightly less so.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                • #38
                  Sikander that post deserves its own topic.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Euro two-fer!!!

                    I don't see what there is to argue about - I am opposed to this wiretapping, and yes, it goes on everywhere behind our backs. It's not a purely European or American thing, it is a global thing, or at least in this particular example, applicable to the west.

                    And yeah, our collective economies may be in difficult
                    Speaking of Erith:

                    "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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                    • #40
                      Increased use of wiretapping isn't the only difference between French national security measures and those used in America. The French don't **** around when it comes to tracking down and intercepting terrorists, which I'm suggesting is the reason why they haven't suffered the large-scale attacks that more permissive states like the US and England have.
                      That's not vague at all.

                      Look, not only did you fail to bring up anything substantive, you completely dodged the original point: what's the connection between lack of wiretap authority and 9/11?

                      A half-witted legal theory that arguably has legal precedent.

                      Not that I'm saying it was legal or illegal; I don't know. It's a complex question that will need to be sorted out by legal experts, not the black and white, OMG! BUSH IS DESTROYING OUR FREEDOMS!!! issue that so many wish it was...
                      As the Washington Times themselves noted, Truong was decided on pre-FISA grounds, and was made by an Appellate Court. I would also add that "FISA warrants" are not warrants in the 4th Amendment sense, and that the laws Congress has passed give the President authority to conduct unwarranted wiretaps.

                      As the (non-partisan) Congressional Research Service has noted, the Supreme Court in Keith suggested that Congress can establish statutory rules over the domestic end of foreign intelligence gathering. SCOTUS suggested the outlines for such a law, and that was the genesis of FISA.

                      Finally, it's important to note that FISA's constitutionality has been upheld, thus the courts do not consider it an unconstitutional burden over the President's Article II powers.

                      It's pretty straight forward here: Dear Leader acted illegally. Even Republicans like Specter have said that they can't find legal justification for the NSA surveillance.

                      This is all well and good for an organization (like the FBI) which is a law enforcement agency whose purpose is in large part getting convictions. For an organization like the NSA for whom job one is preventing surprise attacks like Pearl Harbor or 911 it is a problem. With no internal capabilities to investigate beyond its intercept capacity it is uniquely unsuited to utilize the warrant system. Nor should its focus be changed to improve its capabilities in this regard.
                      Seeing as how as of the end of 2004, the FISA court has turned down 4 requests for electronic surveillance, while granting 18,761 requests (and all 4 were partially granted after modification by the gov't), I don't think that the FISA warrant system, which is considerably laxer than in criminal law, is an undue burden. Further, given that the gov't can ask for the FISA warrants up to 72 hours after the wiretaps, I don't see the big deal here.

                      As Gonzales has stated, the issue is not that the gov't doesn't have the ability to get the FISA warrants, but that the sheer volume of these NSA wiretaps makes that prohibitive. And that's frightening.
                      Last edited by Ramo; February 15, 2006, 13:37.
                      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                      -Bokonon

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                      • #41
                        That's not vague at all.


                        I apologize for not wanting to spend the time required to write an exhaustive overview of the differences between French and American national security measures. I really should take this vital discussion more seriously.

                        Look, not only did you fail to bring up anything substantive, you completely dodged the original point: what's the connection between lack of wiretap authority and 9/11?


                        I never made that connection and I don't see why I should be obligated to address your strawman...
                        KH FOR OWNER!
                        ASHER FOR CEO!!
                        GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ramo

                          Seeing as how as of the end of 2004, the FISA court has turned down 4 requests for electronic surveillance, while granting 18,761 requests (and all 4 were partially granted after modification by the gov't), I don't think that the FISA warrant system, which is considerably laxer than in criminal law, is an undue burden. Further, given that the gov't can ask for the FISA warrants up to 72 hours after the wiretaps, I don't see the big deal here.

                          As Gonzales has stated, the issue is not that the gov't doesn't have the ability to get the FISA warrants, but that the sheer volume of these NSA wiretaps makes that prohibitive. And that's frightening.
                          Here's the deal. The wiretapping happens, warrant or no all the time. It's legal because one end of these converations is overseas. What's proscribed is using the information gathered from the end of the conversation that originated in the U.S. It can be legally retained and used under the FISA law if the government decides that they want to ask for a warrant within 3 days. Unfortunately that requires that a translator / analyst was available to have a look at it within those 3 days, and if one was available they'd have to provide enough supporting information for a staff lawyer to write up the request. Considering the shortage of Arabic, Urdu etc. linguists these days it wouldn't surprise me if there were an enormous backlog of intercepts that have never been looked at, nor would it be surprising if getting all of this in place in 3 days turns out to be a difficult hurdle.
                          He's got the Midas touch.
                          But he touched it too much!
                          Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

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                          • #43
                            But the point is that getting a warrant almost certainly doesn't require a translation, given that the FISA court very, very rarely denies requests.
                            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                            -Bokonon

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